View Full Version : The infraction system.
Quadros
10-25-2007, 6:31 AM
So Hula got infracted for a month for saying something about a dead dog, which makes me wonder- Why exactly is it that people are being punished for sticking around, again? I mean I get it, this way you can easily ban dickwads who join and just monumentally fuck around, but you have to accept that some established, popular members have a brand of humour that centres on being edgy as fuck. I'm thinking Assman, Hula and BMP, for example. Further, the type of humour employed in the comics we all joined the site to read is going to be the same as ours, so it's unavoidable that occasionally we're going to fuck around and get infracted, that's who we are. This system seems to punish us for being exactly the kind of member that make this place so great, and for sticking around and becoming part of this community. So, I urge a return to the old TO system. I mean, if someone's such a dick that they should be banned, I don't think we need seizure inducing rectangles to tell us that. And I also think that severity of punishments should be put in the hands of the mods to hand out in relation to the seriouness of the infraction. All this system says is that you don't trust your own mods, so have to constrain them to an automated system that can cause an popular and established member to be permabanned for saying 'lol dead dog'. Is that really the forum you want to run?
But then that's just my opinion.
Mirrorman
10-25-2007, 6:45 AM
It's not the infraction points fault that hes gathered 20 this far.
Quadros
10-25-2007, 6:51 AM
Yeah but at least 80% of the occasions on which he gathered them he was fucking hilarious doing it, and i just don't think that should be punished with this much severity. It's bound to happen, the longer you're around the more infraction points you aquire. You can;t really avoid that.
People who make threads about their dead dogs dying on a hill with sunshine = fags.
They should know that they would only get flamed.
ANYWAY
I think we should stick to the system we have now, its pretty good and not as annoying as the old TO system.
Quadros
10-25-2007, 7:09 AM
That's just it though, it's NOT working. There's no way to fight an infraction if it pushes you over into a ban, it hands out disproportinately severe punishments in relation to the crime and it punishes members for sticking around. I really do think it's fundimentally flawed. I mean, what does it do better than the old system, really?
It gives newbies a chance to realize what they've done wrong before they will be getting TO'd. If they don't understand that, and repeats doing something stupid, they will be punished.
Quadros
10-25-2007, 7:15 AM
True, I do appreciate the new lenience in that respect. Perhaps if that could be retained, but without the ladder system of punishments...
Mr. Crow
10-25-2007, 7:22 AM
Don't the infraction points go away? I was under the impression that after a couple of months they disappeared or something.
I want the TO system back, too, mainly because reading the Ban Kamp was funny as fuck.
Yea they go away over time, its different from infraction to infraction, but you're able to see when it expires in your profile.
They expire after three months.
A user, like the previously mentioned Hulabalooza, may have dozens of small AOLisms or punctuation errors which were previously ignored (to an extent) under the old TO system because they were well established and well liked.
Because of this, a mod may unwittingly deal the death blow to a member for something small, like an AOLism, under the new system.
A month's TO is a very long time for the forum, and the infraction system is to blame.
I totally agree with quadros. @_@
Assassin
10-25-2007, 9:59 AM
I like the TO system better aswell.
TO: Noone cares
Hmm, let's see. *whips out the old infrac list*
10 points for sending porn to someone via PM. That's pretty hilarious. He got that guy good!
3 points for starting a thread calling someone a cousin fucker for absolutely no reason to start shit. Oh that card.
Another 6 points for abusing the report system on two separate occasions by reporting himself, annoying the mods who use the report system to actually improve the forums.
1 point for posting "Buttsex!" in a thread about a dead dog.*
Yep, I guess I was wrong. That guy is hilarious!
Quadros, your sense of humor really sucks. :indiff: I mean 16 out of 20 of his points were for doing stuff that nobody would ever see (abusing the report system, harassing someone over PM)
You need to face the fact that your hero is a complete dickshit, and really not that funny at all.
*note, many other people trolled that thread and didn't get infractions, because they were funny about it.
Mirrorman
10-25-2007, 10:38 AM
Wow. That is really dumb :indiff: .
Quadros
10-25-2007, 11:07 AM
Hmm, let's see. *whips out the old infrac list*
10 points for sending porn to someone via PM. That's pretty hilarious. He got that guy good!
That was pretty funny, and the guy diserved it.
3 points for starting a thread calling someone a cousin fucker for absolutely no reason to start shit. Oh that card.
Of course there was a reason! It was Arkain. And he DID fuck his cousin.
Another 6 points for abusing the report system on two separate occasions by reporting himself, annoying the mods who use the report system to actually improve the forums.
I bet the mods smiled when they read it.
1 point for posting "Buttsex!" in a thread about a dead dog.*
Yep, I guess I was wrong. That guy is hilarious!
He was making a point about how quickly crap threads go to shit/SPAME. He didn't expect to get infracced for it because, well, that was the point. It's hardly a month TO offense, is it?
Quadros, your sense of humor really sucks. :indiff:
I find your comics funny :indiff:
I mean 16 out of 20 of his points were for doing stuff that nobody would ever see (abusing the report system, harassing someone over PM)
You need to face the fact that your hero is a complete dickshit, and really not that funny at all.
I got a laugh out of them, and he's more of a protege than a hero.
*note, many other people trolled that thread and didn't get infractions, because they were funny about it.
Thanks!
BadAnkle
10-25-2007, 12:24 PM
You may have joined the forums for the comics, but you stayed, in large part, because of Rob. He's the admin with the biggest presence in the Explosm forums. They are, to a great extent, an extension of his sense of humor. It may sound harsh, but he has the right - no, the responsibility - to decide what's funny and what isn't. And he ain't laughin'.
No one is saying that race and ethnicity should be taboo topics. There are Mexican jokes that Mexicans even laugh at. Black comedians have built entire careers on if it had been a brother jokes. It becomes tiresome and offensive when there is no thought put into it, when it becomes nothing more than an attempt to shock people or to troll for a fight.
Quadros
10-25-2007, 1:04 PM
...You know this isn't a thread about racism in SPAME, right BA? Because I do agree that that wasn't funny anymore.
BadAnkle
10-25-2007, 1:11 PM
...You know this isn't a thread about racism in SPAME, right BA? Because I do agree that that wasn't funny anymore.
I was talking to you about your defense of Hulabalooza, responding to the post right above that one.
Quadros
10-25-2007, 1:17 PM
I don't know where the race comment came from then. Hula got banned for 'buttsex'. And I know that rob may not have found it funny, but a lot of people did, and all that I'm saying is that the system shouldn't allow for someone to be disproportionately punished for a minor misdemeanour. I'm not fellating Hula, he's just a very good example of the holes in the system. He is a funny, popular member who's been banned for a long time for taking the piss a little. Also, if Rob doesn't have a good opinion of him then how is he a story mod?
If you find the word buttsex randomly thrown into a thread funny, you are probably 12 years old.
Quadros
10-25-2007, 1:20 PM
I don't find it funny, I'm just saying that it's not worthy of a month long TO.
Quadros
10-25-2007, 1:23 PM
It only got one point.
That's kind of my point.
Mirrorman
10-25-2007, 1:26 PM
And that point would be?
Point of no return. :evillaugh
Quadros
10-25-2007, 1:33 PM
that the infraction system blindsides mods into giving unfairly harsh TOs for minor misdemeanors just because the recipient has been a member here for a while and has a 'spotted past'/is a bit of a dick.
BadAnkle
10-25-2007, 1:36 PM
Are you suggesting that someone who has a lot of infraction points shouldn't be held to the same rules as everybody else? I hate having to give a one-point infraction that results in a long TO. But what would you have the moderators do? I can't help thinking that the onus should be on the person with nineteen infraction points to just stay the fuck out of trouble for a while until some of the points expire.
And remember that they do expire. The admins just want to limit the amount of dumb shit each person does. Everybody posts stuff that warrants an infrac every now and again. If it's funny, we (the mods) are supposed to let it go as long as it doesn't break any of the more serious rules. But if all someone does is test the limits of the rules, they're going to rack up points.
Mirrorman
10-25-2007, 1:37 PM
Maybe he just shouldn't have been sending those noods then, now should he?
Quadros
10-25-2007, 1:42 PM
Are you suggesting that someone who has a lot of infraction points shouldn't be held to the same rules as everybody else? I hate having to give a one-point infraction that results in a long TO. But what would you have the moderators do? I can't help thinking that the onus should be on the person with nineteen infraction points to just stay the fuck out of trouble for a while until some of the points expire.
I'm suggesting that the severity of the punishment for the misdemeanour should be fully in the hands of the mods, not a beuracratic system with no oppertunity for lenience.
What I think Quadros is saying, is that you get more severe punishment by being part of the forums longer, a newb can come and post the same thing that someone else posts but the newb only gets one point while the person that has been here longer gets a month TO because of infractions piling up. Maybe 3 months is a little too long for infracs to stick around. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but I definitely think the old TO system was better and funnier.
BAN ME PLEASE
10-25-2007, 2:23 PM
This system works great for newbies who can not follow the rules and will obviously get permabanned in a few weeks. But like Quadros said the old way was better. I mean, it's no secret that this forum plays favorites, because any and all elites who post shit that atleast isn't incohereant babble won't get in trouble for it, or a warning at worst, while a newbie will get 5 infraction points.
Since assassin and hulabalooza aren't elites; and they can still get in trouble any normal way, it is pretty easy to see them getting permabanned really easily. The thing is they're popular among a portion of the explom users and they are liked for their retarded humor that usually brings a topic off-topic.
They should get in trouble for the dumb things they do, but if they did a bunch of shit that accumulated to 24 points in one month; then three months later get 1 point for 'dropping your dots' or something like that to have them permabanned, well, that's not exactly fair. I say give them a week for porn, give them 5 days for saying some dumb shit, but all in all it's not like they're doing this every single post(and making it a dumb one) But things someone did a while ago shouldn't build up on things they just did.
I liked the old TO system, even if it was pretty strict. Not that my opinion matters, but switch back to the old system or atleast make the infractions expire after only a month.
BadAnkle
10-25-2007, 2:30 PM
You get longer TOs for having higher point totals, not for being around longer. I've been around since before they started the infrac system, but I have a total of zero points. I'm not the funniest person here by a long shot, but I have managed to make a number of people laugh without getting any infractions.
And I cut breaks to noobs because they don't know any better. I don't think it's unreasonable to hold you to a higher standard than the noobs if you've been here for a year; you should know better.
You guys keep making this out to be about humor. It's really not. I've never given an infraction because something wasn't funny.
PMing porn and abusing the report system are very clearly against the rules. They're even right there, in the rules. There should be no confusion, especially for someone who's been around a while like Hula.
You can pretend I'm oppressing your senses of humor if that makes you feel better, but I'm really just trying to keep the forums from sucking.
BA has spoken. And I truely agree with him, in all honesty. :indiff:
EDIT:
Oh and there goes Rob.
Mr Anorexia
10-25-2007, 2:39 PM
What about posting porn directly in the elite forum.
Oberlin
10-25-2007, 3:02 PM
You guys keep making this out to be about humor. It's really not. I've never given an infraction because something wasn't funny.
Actually, I'm fairly certain that Urser made a spame thread about you infracting him for being embarrassingly unfunny.
EDIT: http://forums.explosm.net/showthread.php?t=11243
BadAnkle
10-25-2007, 3:07 PM
Actually, I'm fairly certain that Urser made a spame thread about you infracting him for being embarrassingly unfunny.
EDIT: http://forums.explosm.net/showthread.php?t=11243
Yo, why you gotta be bringin' up old shit, dog?
Oberlin
10-25-2007, 3:11 PM
It was 4 days ago :indiff:
Bringing up old shit would be:
http://forums.explosm.net/showthread.php?t=4693
http://forums.explosm.net/showthread.php?t=2236
http://forums.explosm.net/showthread.php?t=230
Derelict
10-25-2007, 4:11 PM
It's just a classic "three strikes" type thing, except you get a lot more than three strikes. Hula broke the rules and was punished. Simple as that.
It doesn't really matter if it was funny or not, if it's against the rules it's against the rules.
If you find the word buttsex randomly thrown into a thread funny, you are probably 12 years old.
=(
Dodger
10-25-2007, 4:25 PM
Do infract points go away, or do they stay with you forever?
If they don't, you guys should erase them after a certain period of time.
I admit I like the TO system a lot better than the infract system, it seems that the infract system makes it too easy to get banned for long periods of time. But since you guys seem so set on it, at least delete the points after a set period of time.
edit: Oh nevermind, I just saw the three months thing. But I'm still in favor for switching back to the TO system.
Oberlin
10-25-2007, 4:38 PM
3 months.
jewishjosh
10-25-2007, 4:39 PM
I think we should go back to the TO system, partly because the mods can give out more appropriate punishment lengths based on the severity of the crime, and partly because Ban Kamp was hilarious. The only problem with the TO system is that newbs come in, use AOLisms and forget capitals in their first post, and get booted for 12 hours. We should keep the warning aspect of the infrac system so that newbs can see what they did wrong instead of just getting kicked out. Kind of like what BA's been doing, I've noticed a lot of warnings given instead of infracs for new members or first time offenders. Problem is that when they've been around enough to know which minor things are punishable, they get one infrac point instead of a TO.
I honestly think the mods are a bit lenient on giving out infracs because of stuff like Buttsex giving you a one month TO.
This system works great for newbies who can not follow the rules and will obviously get permabanned in a few weeks.
Most newbs get perma'd because they flame the whole forum in a fit of fury and get slapped with 25 points at once. I have yet to see someone who keeps breaking the rules for AOLisms over and over to the point of a permaban.
El Mojado
10-25-2007, 5:14 PM
I think a new system should be introduced. A mixture of both, instead of 25 points its 10. From there if it is really severe punishable act (posting porn, abuse of the report system, constant AOLism, severe flaming, ETC) should get a point, then have a TO (2 weeks to 3 months depending on the severity and of course Permaban if it is really, really, bad). For minor things we use the old TO system. Mods choose how much to give them (1 hour to 1 week depending on the severity).
Example:
Some Noob23: LOLZ THATS FUNY, I LKIE YOU. LETS MAKE BABAHS! (Some Noob23 has been TO'ed for 5 hours by Some Mod. Reason : Aolism, and babbling like a dumbass.)
PRONSTAR69: Hey guys look at my sexy pictures (PRONSTAR has been given a Infraction Point, and has been TO'ed for a month by Some Mod. Reason: Posting Porn in the General Forum.)
Its a real simple concept.
jewishjosh
10-25-2007, 6:17 PM
So you're saying I can post porn or goatse 10 times before I get permabanned? Under the TO system, it's not too hard for the admins to permaban someone who's a total asshole and/or idiot. They do notice these things, and if they don't we always have the report button.
Honestly, though, I'd let Pornstar69 post on my forums.
El Mojado
10-25-2007, 7:09 PM
What I am trying to say is that they choose how many infraction points go towards each punishable act. If posting porn would get them permabanned then let them. But use the old TO system in order to punish small things.
RabidMonkey
10-26-2007, 6:06 AM
How about, if you're stupid enough to rack up 25 points, your problem? I have currently got 6 in play,
2 points from failing to post a question after my answer in a game, a simple mistake, but still not following rules, I now make sure that I follow game rules closely.
1 point for shitty debating.
2 points for responding to every post by Jerle with "Penis" in the beef forum.
And just recently 1 point for a no content post, because I got two statements that I agreed with and quoted them as my response.
So basically after getting 5 points in a period of 10 days, I pulled my head in. If other people aren't sensible enough to do this, then their bloody problem. Anyways, I seem to recall Sugabe or someone saying that they can hand out TO's if they want, but is more pissing around, so they don't bother.
I agree with RabidMonkey. Not everyone who's "been here a while" is doomed to get permabanned. You just have to break the rules and not learn.
What if points expired after 2 months instead of 3?
Mirrorman
10-26-2007, 2:06 PM
2 would be better. Then my Tempestcaused points would go away sooner :argh: .
I agree with RabidMonkey. Not everyone who's "been here a while" is doomed to get permabanned. You just have to break the rules and not learn.
What if points expired after 2 months instead of 3?
I think that would be a good compromise.
I think you should make the mods say something funny in infracs too.
Oberlin
10-26-2007, 4:58 PM
I think anyone who's retarded enough to get infracs, should keep them for a while. 3 months is fine.
Of the 4 infracs I have, there was only one I wasn't expecting, and it was for a debatable circlejerk. Seriously, anyone with half a brain can figure out what is and what isn't acceptable.
Sugabe
10-26-2007, 5:08 PM
The mods were actually very easy on hula because he was so close to a month TO, or at least I was. We were not simply out to get him. Most people who broke tables badly like he did would not have gotten off with a warning.
Older members should know better, and therefore be held to higher standards. I get flamed more when I infract them though. Its really lose-lose.
RabidMonkey
10-26-2007, 7:08 PM
What if points expired after 2 months instead of 3?
As stated in my last post, if they're stupid enough to get points, then their problem.
Having it at three months means they have to be more sensible, because those points don't go away as fast and just keep adding up to a permaban. Two months means they can be stupider more often. As many people don't really seem to care about infractions until they actually get a month TO.
jewishjosh
10-27-2007, 12:53 AM
The mods were actually very easy on hula because he was so close to a month TO, or at least I was.
That's the problem. This is why I say go back to the TO system.
Experienced members will do funny but stupid shit on purpose (RIP Valium in GF) regardless of which system is in place. Accumulating infraction points isn't a big deal for them because they know better than to waste a "valuable" buffer zone between themselves and a permaban on AOLisms.
I don't think anyone that really deserves to be on the forums could get 25 points in three months. Even the older, funny members know when to quit for a while. I think both systems were pretty effective, is there any way to merge them?
BadAnkle
10-27-2007, 10:52 AM
One thing that the old TO system had going for it was that the reason for the TO was added right to the post. I think that cut down on people responding to a shit post that had already been dealt with by the mods. I didn't know what the flashing cards meant until about a week before I was made GF mod, and many new users are even dumber than I am..
Dodger
10-27-2007, 11:36 AM
What if points expired after 2 months instead of 3?
That seems like a good compromise in my opinion. Anyone who gets 25 points in 2 months deserved to be perma'd. It takes care of my only grievance with the infrac system. I'm all for this.
BadAnkle
10-27-2007, 12:31 PM
I've talked to Hula, and feel I have to point a few things out: He has not contested the ban, nor does he plan to He has not protested the infraction that got him the ban, nor does he plan to.If you want to bitch about the infraction system, don't use Hula as your martyr. He doesn't want the hassle.
Coconuts
10-27-2007, 2:26 PM
I think if you get 25 infraction points, but people on the forums like you and the admins don't hate you, the ban would be overturned.
El Mojado
10-27-2007, 2:36 PM
Or maybe when you hit 25 you have something like a trial. A few selected mods choose either to ban you, or give you a large TO. But its really up to Rob.
Beefynick
10-27-2007, 3:31 PM
I do not see a need for a trial. If you manage to get 25 points, you are a complete idiot. It is really not that hard to avoid since the points expire after three months. If you rack up 25 points are you actually contributing to the forum and do we want you here? The answer is most likely no.
BadAnkle
10-27-2007, 3:41 PM
I just had a really cool idea. I think it may just solve the problem to everybody's satisfaction.
What we do is we keep the current system completely unchanged except (and this is the exciting part): Instead of obsessing over what might hypothetically occur if we got to 25 points, we just worry about not actually getting to 25.
I know it sounds crazy, but it just might work.
Beefynick
10-27-2007, 4:07 PM
That is a crazy idea indeed.
EDGY AS FUCK
ono the internet forum
Hahahaha.
RabidMonkey
10-28-2007, 4:10 AM
I love you BadAnkle :shobon:
People just need to understand this;
"If you get to 25 points, even though you had a month TO at 20 points to loose some of your infraction points, you really deserve to be permabanned, because obviously you don't understand the rules. So :gtfo:"
Benjaman
10-28-2007, 11:18 AM
Quick Question: If you have 19 points and kept it that way for two months and a half, then get a 1 point infrac, and get a month TO, do you points still expire?
El Mojado
10-28-2007, 4:01 PM
I don't think so. I think that every single point has its own experation date.
Beefynick
10-28-2007, 4:35 PM
Every infraction you get expires in three months. So those 19 points would expire three month from when you got them no matter if you got another point infraction which lead to a time out.
Benjaman
10-28-2007, 7:11 PM
I don't think so. I think that every single point has its own experation date.
Every infraction you get expires in three months. So those 19 points would expire three month from when you got them no matter if you got another point infraction which lead to a time out.
My question was really of the fact of "Does time in a TO count as infrac expiration time?" but I was just trying to clarify before someone asked me what the hell I meant.
What if one of your infractions expires during a TO?
Would you be un-TO'd?
Spastic
10-28-2007, 10:27 PM
Honestly Rob I see no point in reducing it to two months, at twenty points you get a month TO. So if you can't refrain from getting 5 points when you had a month to let em cool off, then you deserve to be banned.
That's a good point.
During that month long ban, chances are a good few of their points will expire. Once they come back, they'll be on their way to 20 points and a month long ban again. There's a much higher likelihood of someone getting chronic 1 month bans than getting a permaban.
Oberlin
10-29-2007, 3:49 PM
Which is another reason I think that if anything, the period should be lengthened. If you accumulate 25 points in 3 months, chances are you've spent more than half of that banned (1 day, 3 day, 5 day, 1 week, 1 month). If you can't keep it under 25 in 4 or 5 months, I still think you should get the axe. It's not like any valued members are gonna get perma'd anyway, most people who've been here for a while can get away with almost aanything.
I don't think it should be LENGTHENED really, three months isn't too bad. We don't want too many people getting permabanned, we should at least give the assholes a chance to become better posters. This is a forum, not a dictatorship.
PS: Rob are you ever gonna make that name change thread?
Quadros
10-31-2007, 1:02 PM
That's a good point.
During that month long ban, chances are a good few of their points will expire. Once they come back, they'll be on their way to 20 points and a month long ban again. There's a much higher likelihood of someone getting chronic 1 month bans than getting a permaban.
1 month is still a fucking long time here though.
Mirrorman
10-31-2007, 4:20 PM
That's a good point.
During that month long ban, chances are a good few of their points will expire. Once they come back, they'll be on their way to 20 points and a month long ban again. There's a much higher likelihood of someone getting chronic 1 month bans than getting a permaban.
Hmm, if you think about it like that, it really makes sense. So we might as well keep it. Although I can't imagine what I would do if I would be banned from here for a month :wail: .
How do we see how long a member is in TO for? Like currently Urser is TO'd, but I don't when he'll be back so I can make fun of him.
Kenneh
11-01-2007, 6:08 AM
How do we see how long a member is in TO for? Like currently Urser is TO'd, but I don't when he'll be back so I can make fun of him.
http://forums.explosm.net/bankamp.php
Where the fuck did you find that?
Mirrorman
11-01-2007, 7:13 AM
Kwanza posted it in some thread and said he will work on it.
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