Scream, Aim, Fire

[Mirrorman]

Title: Scream, Aim, Fire
Genre: Heavy Metal, Trash Metal, Metalcore.
Format: CD and a Special Edition CD/DVD
Rating: :heya::heya::heya::heya::heya:
Date: Januar , 2008

At last the new Bullet for My Valentine album is out.

I just got it, am listening to the songs at this very moment and this is what I've got to say.

Basically the new album is many many times better than the last one in my opinion although it had some really great songs.

Like wikipedia says its Heavy Metal, Trash Metal, Metalcore. I'd just like to bring out that this is more Heavy and Trash than Metalcore, opposed to the last album that was pretty much Metalcore in my opinion. So anybody who likes Heavy Metal/Trash Metal should get it.

I'd really like to give this 5 out of 5
If anybody has it, share your opinons please.

Tracklisting

1. "Scream Aim Fire"
2. "Eye of the Storm"
3. "Hearts Burst Into Fire"
4. "Waking the Demon"
5. "Disappear"
6. "Deliver Us From Evil"
7. "Take it Out on Me" (Feat. Benji Webbe of Skindred)
8. "Say Goodnight"
9. "End of Days"
10. "Last to Know"
11. "Forever and Always"

[Assassin]

You nailed it: BFMV is Trash metal.

[Mirrorman]

Have you even listened to the new album?

[Tempest]

THESE TEARS DON'T FALL, THEY CRASH AROUND ME.

At least, mine did when I listened to "Scream Aim Fire" and "Heads Burst Into Fire". Didn't bother with any of the other songs because those two were trash. In my opinion Bullet For My Valentine is like an over-glorified version of My Chemical Romance. Emo metal is not real metal. :ahe:

[WillJ.]

I like Bullet's older stuff but this new album really doesn't cut it. I was hoping for a much heavier album but this album fell short of those expectations. It is still and okay album I guess.

[Android]

Do you have a link to any of their music, or like a myspace? I've never heard this band before.

[Mirrorman]

I'll look for it.
http://www.myspace.com/bulletformyvalentine
The main ones should be there, also updated the first post with the tracklist so you'd know which are the new songs.

[buckfan]

Eh, no offense but its kind of pop-metal. I wouldn't listen to it anytime soon.

[CheesePlease]

I downloaded it and I have to say it was pretty mediocre. I expected so much more from this album with the way they were talking about it, but it was a huge let down. Most of the songs sound the same, and Matt Tuck's vocals just sound like he's trying too hard, they were way better on the first album. Overall I give it 2 1/2 :heya:s.

[blackdiamond13]

yaaagh I think I'm too much of a traditionalist to enjoy these guys... they don't strike me as being any different from the new breed that has arisen in the past few years, and I gottatell you I would rather stick to the Iron Maiden and The Dark Tranquillity...blackdiamond13 @ Jemsite (http://www.jemsite.com)

[The_Omnipotent_Shoe]

I saw an advertisement for this album on TV. That was enough to deter me from even looking into this album.

Also, this band isn't thrash. They're deathcore/metalcore, both of which are inherently thrashy.

But, anyway, I cannot stand this band at all. Mainstream "emo" deathcore marketted for metalically-inexperienced teenagers... just like the rest of the deathcore 'movement'. Although, I must admit this better than most of the garbage I hear played on the radio.

[whiskeyjack]

i realize this is probably going to explode someone's brain, but when it comes to me sitting in my car with two cd's in my hand, and one of them is Bullet, and the other one is Trivium....(which is the only comparable band i can think of...) Trivium wins hands down. Composition, Lyrically, Difficulty, and just plain balls...it wins.

[Souldrinker]

Well, they're definitely trash. Definitely not metal, though.

But when it comes to me sitting in my car with two cds in my hand, and one of them is Bullet, and the other one is Trivium....I put one of the cds down, pick up a gun, and blow my brains out.

[eyehatepeople]

i for one am someone who agrees. although it is THRASH, not trash. its still a great album and if you got the special addition version (like me) there is an extra track on there called Ashes of the Innocent.

the lyrics r much better on this album, although hearts burst into fire is homo, other songs have great lyrics, guitarwork but the vocals could be better.

[The Reverend Is]

I don't think Bullet For My Valentine is Thrash Metal at all.
They are a metalcore band.

The only great example of Trash Metal I can give is original Metallica.
Also, the new Trivium album is very trashy, however they mix in a lot of Metalcore into their sound, like "Detonation" thats a song that includes a lot of trash, and evens it out with metalcore.

[The_Omnipotent_Shoe]

Bullet for My Valentine (holy shit, I just realized how shitty their name is) is deathcore. Deathcore and metalcore (and death metal and black metal for that matter) are all thrash derivatives, which means they are all thrashy in nature. But they are still not straight-up thrash.

Thrash would include:
early Metallica
Anthrax
early Megadeth
early Sepultura
Slayer
Sodom
Kreator
Destruction
Darkane

[The Reverend Is]

Thank you, finally someone knows what they are talking about.
In otherwords, they have trash influences.

[The_Omnipotent_Shoe]

So do half the metal genres out there. I mena, thrash was the main attraction of the early wave of metal.

[UnderOath]

My expectations of this album were really high before I bought it. I was somewhat let down when I finally got it. Mat Tuck changed his style with the vocals (especially track 1 and 2), which I didn't really appreciate. Loving the guitar though, as always, BMFV always rip up great pieces that are so fitting.

Does anyone agree with that whole vocal thing?

[The_End]

I thought the album was utter shite, waking the demon was alright then they fucked that up with the shitty video version.

[nerdykid_1324]

I've only heard 'hearts burst into fire' on the radio but I need to buy this album.
To be honest, i'm not bothered about what genre they are. They make good music with meaning and thats all there is to it.
But yeah ok :D

[IceMelts]

So far I like this album more than The Poison. The track Scream Aim Fire is great, harder in a way than their earlier work and the video was a million times better than previous attempts *sigh* the story lines in previous videos were sadly lacking and had absolutely no correlation to the songs.

I digress; although I haven't listened to Scream Aim Fire as much as The Poison,yet, I can definitely say I will look for their next album.

[devilsgunner]

Waking the Demon is alright, probably the best track on the album, the video sucks dick though. They changed the vocal track for it, and it's a gay video in general. Say Goodnight is alright, fucking slow song but I like it near the end. Rest of the album pretty much sucks dick, I'm glad they've started moving away from the lyrical direction they took in their first album, however I'm not so glad that they started making shittier music to put the new vocals over.

I'd rate it 1/5

[SLjimbolian]

I dunno what I hate more: the band or their legion of retarded fans.

[Vin]

I like some of Bullet's stuff. This album was not included in that small, (and ever shrinking) pile. I listened to Scream Aim Fire when I saw it on 'The Hits' (now 4Music), and initially thought, this is alright, and so downloaded it. Looking back, now I'm not so sure that that decision was a good one.

[Rawrfulness]

I think it's a really good album. Great songs, a mix of screaming and singing. A mix of soft and heavy. But to be fair, every single song of Bullet's is amazing. But then again, they are my favourite band. :D

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Horrible album by a horrible band. I can't believe my mate who played this to me actually likes this pathetic excuse for "metal". What a fuckcock.

[RedneckKing]

The only song on this album that I could care for was Waking the Demon, and even then, its not that great.

[hollywood_maggot]

The first two songs on the album are an insult to people's intelligence, and the title song is an insult to anyone who has ever fought in war. The rest of the album isn't quite as shit, and there are a couple of songs I like, but overall its pretty bad. The only really good thing is the guitar.

[Cakelord]

I really prefer Pantera, the emotion's just really intense.

[strangledcaterpillar]

Sodom
Kreator
Destruction


I like you.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

I really prefer Pantera, the emotion's just really intense.

That's because Pantera were a decent band who actually worked on making the best music they could, unlike BFMV.

[Metalhead636]

Half decent album for a genuinely shitty group, the singer needs a little something called talent. Everything else I wanted to say Ziggy beat me to.

[Tempest]

Holy fuck I posted in this thread a year ago.

I actually like BFMV now. :(

[otaku-dono]

I'll give it a meh. The Poison is better.

[KillerMonkey]

I liked "Waking the Demon",
but the rest wasn't so impressive.
I'd give it a 2/5

[The_Archangel]

Fucking....emo shit. All of the members are mediocre at best.

The members of the band used to like whiny scene kids. Now they are trying to go for that metalhead look.

It's kind of like My Chemical Romance trying to look like greasers instead of emos in that disgraceful "cover" of Desolation Row by Bob Dylan.

[hollywood_maggot]

..No, the lead guitarist in this band has a good deal of talent. He actually manages to play emotionally. The rest are shit, yes, but he is good.

[jetfuel495]

Bullet for My Valentine (holy shit, I just realized how shitty their name is) is deathcore.

When I read this I laughed so hard I pissed myself. Lucky for me, I was already on the toilet. I just HAD to register to refute this statement.

BFMV are NOT deathcore. They are straight up metalcore, and their latest album is watered-down metalcore with a wannabe-thrash edge to it, similar to Trivium's Crusade (which sucked as well).

Deathcore is way heavier than metalcore, with a less defined and structured style. Metalcore frequently uses the minor scale of whatever the lowest string is, and also chugs that string as often as possible in between other notes. Deathcore won't even use scales most of the time. While metalcore is a combo of metal and hardcore, deathcore is a combo of death metal and metalcore/hardcore.

Please don't say that BFMV are deathcore. They sound NOTHING like Whitechapel, Born of Osiris, Suicide Silence, The Red Chord, or early Bring Me the Horizon. They also sound nothing like good deathcore bands either, like Despised Icon and After The Burial.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

All "core" bands sound the same, jetfuel496, don't bother kidding yourself.

[jetfuel495]

All "core" bands sound the same, jetfuel496, don't bother kidding yourself.

Oh, I'm sorry, you're right, master of knowledge. Bad Religion (hardcore punk) and Winds of Plague (some shitty ass wannabe death metal, but can't decide whether they want to grow balls or not) sound exactly the same. Don't kid yourself. You have no idea what you're talking about.

And my username is right in front of you, the least you could do is get it right.

Did I mention you present a very convincing argument?

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Oh shut the fuck up, I made a typo, DEAL with it.
And really, 99% of "core" is made up of the same boring chugging riff with whiney emo/screamo vocals that annoy the hell out of me. The only "core" band that I'd say is worth a shit is Between the Buried and Me, but I wouldn't even consider them metalcore at all.

[Pelican Man]

Oh, I'm sorry, you're right, master of knowledge. Bad Religion (hardcore punk) and Winds of Plague (some shitty ass wannabe death metal, but can't decide whether they want to grow balls or not) sound exactly the same. Don't kid yourself. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I agree with you in your example, but hardcore isn;t what it used to be. Ziggy means modern hardcore, which is pretty much tit for tat with metalcore, and all the other core genres. But yeah, old school hardcore (which I'm pretty sure is now classed as hardcore punk, as you used) is different.

[jetfuel495]

Oh shut the fuck up, I made a typo, DEAL with it.
And really, 99% of "core" is made up of the same boring chugging riff with whiney emo/screamo vocals that annoy the hell out of me. The only "core" band that I'd say is worth a shit is Between the Buried and Me, but I wouldn't even consider them metalcore at all.
Hey, buddy, no need to get all tough and angsty over the internet.

I'd say that BTBAM pretty much defies classification (cuz they're so damn good) but if I had to pick one genre, I'd definitely say progressive metalcore. There's a distinct sound in their first album that just sets it, especially in Aspirations. Plus, they have breakdowns all the time. There's even a few in Colors. Wikipedia lists them as anything from prog death to mathcore, but I don't listen to them.

And to your first statement about 99% of core being the same chugging riff, where's your proof? Sure, The Acacia Strain's and Emmure's entire discography is made up of the same chug riff over and over, and you can't tell a single Whitechapel or Suicide Silence song apart from one another, but really, don't be so ignorant. That would be as retarded as saying all metal is satanic.

You have no evidence, bro. All of your arguments are either opinions or stereotypical misconceptions. Why don't you try proving to me that 99% of all core music sounds the same? The only things that sound the same are the recent influx of crappy melodic metalcore bands which have gained popularity over the past few years (insert BFMV here).

Oh, and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crzIZyfTOkQ
Fast forward to 3:18 if you think all core bands are talentless. The description says they are tech death but there are way too many breakdowns in this band to be considered tech death. These are also the guys who wrote the Pi breakdown: http://www.metalsucks.net/2008/08/05/music-dork-alert-after-the-burial-explain-the-math-behind-the-insane-rhythms-of-pi/

I agree with you in your example, but hardcore isn;t what it used to be. Ziggy means modern hardcore, which is pretty much tit for tat with metalcore, and all the other core genres. But yeah, old school hardcore (which I'm pretty sure is now classed as hardcore punk, as you used) is different.
This is true. I just had to pick the best way to drive the point home. However, I think that there are two parts to modern hardcore. There are still bands who play the traditional hardcore punk style of music (which are still called hardcore punk), where there are other hardcore bands who have gotten heavier, some of which took influence from metal and ended up as metalcore.

[Tweek]

Is there seriously such a thing as progressive metalcore?

[WongSifu]

Is there seriously such a thing as progressive metalcore?

That term was coined by The Dillinger Escape Plan, if I'm correct. Though, they used it to describe what people call mathcore, which is different from what I would consider BtBaM to be, which is just metalcore with heavy progressive elements. So yeah, progressive metalcore is kind of a confusing term but that's how I would probably label BtBaM.

I disagree that modern "-core" bands all sound the same. Maybe if you're talking about only metalcore, but even then it's usually only just shitty mainstream bands that things like AP go apeshit over. I don't like how metalcore automatically gets labeled as a shit genre just because a couple well-known bands give it a bad reputation. Originally it was just a fusion of hardcore punk and metal, but now it's apparently synonymous with wannabe metal bullshit. Other genres (More specifically, I'm talking about post-hardcore since I'm more knowledgable in that than any sort of -core genre) are pretty varied if you're looking at bands like Fugazi or At the Drive-In or Bear vs Shark. I just don't like how now it seems like adding hardcore elements to a genre or the suffix -core is equivalent to adding the word -shit to it.

[Tweek]

I thought a fusion of hardcore and metal was crossover thrash or something.

[jetfuel495]

That term was coined by The Dillinger Escape Plan, if I'm correct. Though, they used it to describe what people call mathcore, which is different from what I would consider BtBaM to be, which is just metalcore with heavy progressive elements. So yeah, progressive metalcore is kind of a confusing term but that's how I would probably label BtBaM.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure everything you just said is correct.

Plus, the first album The Human Abstract made was considered to be progressive metalcore, although it was very different from BTBAM or TDEP. It was progressive metalcore in the most literal definition. Metalcore with progressive metal influences. But after Midheaven came out, they removed any core connotations with the band, and instead said that they simply had some metalcore influences on their first record, and no metalcore at all on their second.

EDIT: And WongSifu, I completely agree with your edit as well.

[WongSifu]

I thought a fusion of hardcore and metal was crossover thrash or something.

Gosh, I don't even know anymore at this point. Metal is probably the most confusing genre to dissect.




After a quick search on Wiki, it turns out that they're pretty much the same thing in terms of influences (Hardcore punk and metal). Though crossover thrash apparently relates specifically to thrash metal. But it also seems that there's a distinction to be made in that crossover refers to thrash metal with heavy punk elements while metalcore is simply a fusion of both genres.

I don't really know what any of that means or if you could even draw a distinction from those descriptions. But Wiki cites different bands for both genres, so I guess if you really want to know the difference, you'll just have to listen to some metalcore and some crossover.

[jetfuel495]

Gosh, I don't even know anymore at this point. Metal is probably the most confusing genre to dissect.
True. Regular thrash is like a combo of hardcore punk, speed metal, and the NWOBHM. Crossover thrash was thrash with more hardcore punk influences in it.

Metalcore is actually listed as a derivative of thrash, since it not only took influence from it, but essentially did the same thing. Combined heavy metal with hardcore. It just depends on the definition of hardcore at the time.

[hollywood_maggot]

Good to see people defending -core. Yes, there is a load of shit in it, and unfortunately its often the shit thats popular, but like any genre there are some truely brilliant stuff. And with -core theres more than a few.

[jetfuel495]

^Word.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Hey, buddy, no need to get all tough and angsty over the internet.

And to your first statement about 99% of core being the same chugging riff, where's your proof? Sure, The Acacia Strain's and Emmure's entire discography is made up of the same chug riff over and over, and you can't tell a single Whitechapel or Suicide Silence song apart from one another, but really, don't be so ignorant. That would be as retarded as saying all metal is satanic.

You have no evidence, bro. All of your arguments are either opinions or stereotypical misconceptions. Why don't you try proving to me that 99% of all core music sounds the same? The only things that sound the same are the recent influx of crappy melodic metalcore bands which have gained popularity over the past few years (insert BFMV here).


How am I getting tough and angsty?
It's pretty funny how you say I have no idea about "core" considering the fact that I live in an area where 90% of the local bands are hardcore/metalcore/whatevercore and they ALL suck, yet most of them are extremely popular and well known in Australia. I have listened to most of these bands and really can not understand what makes this shit popular.

I'm just using my area/Australia as an example here, but we used to have a hell of alot of awesome metal, now it's just made up of the same bands playing the same song over and over with no original thought put into the musicianship, if you can even call it musicianship.

Also, that song you linked to is horrible, the vocals blow major chunks and the riffs are badly structured, you can't even HEAR the bass and the drums are meh. And what the fuck is with the heavy breathing part? That was just stupid. The solo was ok, but not unlike anything I haven't heard before. And yes, I did listen to the whole song.

[jetfuel495]

How am I getting tough and angsty?
It's pretty funny how you say I have no idea about "core" considering the fact that I live in an area where 90% of the local bands are hardcore/metalcore/whatevercore and they ALL suck, yet most of them are extremely popular and well known in Australia. I have listened to most of these bands and really can not understand what makes this shit popular.

I'm just using my area/Australia as an example here, but we used to have a hell of alot of awesome metal, now it's just made up of the same bands playing the same song over and over with no original thought put into the musicianship, if you can even call it musicianship.

Also, that song you linked to is horrible, the vocals blow major chunks and the riffs are badly structured, you can't even HEAR the bass and the drums are meh. And what the fuck is with the heavy breathing part? That was just stupid. The solo was ok, but not unlike anything I haven't heard before. And yes, I did listen to the whole song.
Generally when capital letters are used in text it indicates that you're shouting. It's pretty well understood. Swearing implies extreme emotions, in this case, anger. Whether you are angry or not is irrelevant. On the Internet, it's all about how you present yourself.

I didn't ask you to analyze the song, I just posted it to prove to you that not all core sounds the same. They sound nothing like BFMV, which, if you recall, was my original point. BFMV are not deathcore. The vocals blow, yes, even I know that. I'm not even sure if ATB's original singer was much better. The rest of the sound issues are probably because you're watching it on YouTube. Sounds fine on CD. Also, you can't deny that the solo in that song takes at least some talent to play, as well as compose (you'd have to be a complete music nerd to make that Pi breakdown).

I don't remember any heavy breathing part, you'll have to get specific.

Now, you talk about all the local core bands you see that suck, but get a large following in Australia. Well, to put it bluntly, most local bands really suck. Most of them imitate what they hear from their favorite bands, and since they're all the same, all their music ends up sounding the same. I've seen my fair share of shitty local core bands that gain a large fanbase. But that's why most bands stay local. You never see shitty bands getting international attention (most of the time)

I'll be back to edit this post in a bit. Gotta drive home.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Uhhh, quite a few Australian shitcore bands have gotten international attention :indiff: ever heard of Parkway Drive (sorry Peliman)? I Killed the Prom Queen? Carpathian? The Red Shore? Yeah, exactly, all shitty core bands that sound exactly the same as each other that are extremely well known.

Also the sound quality on that song was fine, it was just a shitty and pathetic attempt at being "metal".

[jetfuel495]

Uhhh, quite a few Australian shitcore bands have gotten international attention :indiff: ever heard of Parkway Drive (sorry Peliman)? I Killed the Prom Queen? Carpathian? The Red Shore? Yeah, exactly, all shitty core bands that sound exactly the same as each other that are extremely well known.

Also the sound quality on that song was fine, it was just a shitty and pathetic attempt at being "metal".

*sigh*

You continue to dodge the main point. Not all core music sounds the same. That's my resolution, and I stand by it.

Again, this is where opinions come into play. I've heard of all those bands, they're no big secret. I actually really like PWD. IKTPQ is alright, but they're also pretty generic. I was not impressed with the other two bands, though. But even the first two bands have their own subtle differences. Not my fault that you're just being too ignorant to hear them.

Exposure does not equal experience or knowledge.

I also said that most of the time shitty bands don't get international attention. Well, shitty is an opinion, and like it or not, everyone's is different. Bands that I think are crap get famous too, no matter what genre. I'll bet there's a band that you like that's famous that I think is terrible as well.

But see, that's the difference between you and I. You like to run your mouth and talk shit about everything that doesn't cater to your tastes.

And don't try to deny it. You obviously don't like core music, and you are talking a lot of crap. Every post of yours in this thread has been insulting someone or something. It's the pretentious elitist metalheads like you that give the rest of us easygoing dudes a bad name. If you don't like something, then fine. Nobody cares.

Horrible album by a horrible band. I can't believe my mate who played this to me actually likes this pathetic excuse for "metal". What a fuckcock.

See that? You sound like an asshole. If you had a bit of decency, maybe you could voice your thoughts and opinions in a civilized manner without hurling insults around like some kind of 14 year old kid. I don't know how old you are, nor do I care, but you act pretty immature. The only positive thing that I can think of about your posts is that your grammar is much better than that of an immature child.

The music is not a pathetic excuse for metal, because it's not trying to be metal. It's a blend. A hybrid, ffs.

That would be as retarded as someone putting Supra lights in their Civic and then trying to pass it off as a Supra.

BFMV acknowledge the fact that they play metalcore, and so do most other metalcore bands. Sure, Bullet attempted to add more metal influence on the latest record, but they still know what they are. Same thing goes for After the Burial. They have a breakdown like every thirty seconds. How on earth is that "trying to be metal" ?

And you called your friend a fuckcock. Some friend you are. Oh, and maybe if you weren't such a prick, you would accept the fact that he has different tastes in music than you (along with the rest of the world, we're all different) instead of not believing it.

OMG liek sum1 dusnt liek all teh mehtulz as me tehy r teh gayz0rs!!!1!!!

^That's what I get out of most people like you that I meet. What's with all the hate, man? Why do you gotta be like the 80's, back when all the metalheads and the punk guys hated each other? It's always like this:

*neutral party* "Well, why don't you guys like eachother?"
*metalhead* "Their music sucks!"
*punk rocker* "They act like pricks and they say our music sucks."

Metal has always mixed with hardcore no matter what the fans thought (NWOBHM, thrash, crossover thrash, metalcore, etc), and it always will. Either whine and complain or just get over it. Every genre has its crap bands, and every genre has its good ones. The good ones make it to the top and are remembered, the crap ones are just forgotten in time. Acting like your musical tastes are superior to others isn't going to do anything to change that.

[Metalhead636]

I hardly see how NWOBHM is mixed with Hardcore.

[jetfuel495]

I hardly see how NWOBHM is mixed with Hardcore.
Not today's hardcore, of course. The hardcore punk of the late 70's and early 80's. The only NWOBHM band that I really listen to is Iron Maiden, and even just in them, it's pretty evident that they combined punk and metal. A few riffs here and there, powerchorded verses and bridges, fast tempo, and a solo. It was much more distinct in their earlier songs (like Murders in the Rue Morgue), before it started changing a bit into the sound they have now.

EDIT: the soundhouse tapes are a great example of the punk influence in Maiden.

[Metalhead636]

Not today's hardcore, of course. The hardcore punk of the late 70's and early 80's. The only NWOBHM band that I really listen to is Iron Maiden, and even just in them, it's pretty evident that they combined punk and metal. A few riffs here and there, powerchorded verses and bridges, fast tempo, and a solo. It was much more distinct in their earlier songs (like Murders in the Rue Morgue), before it started changing a bit into the sound they have now.

So you are generalizing an entire genre of music from just one band?


/argument.

[Tweek]

Haha dude some of my friends listen to Bullet For My Valentine and similar shitty metalcore bands and I insult them, too.
Not because I'm a metal purist - I don't even listen to metal - but because it sounds like shit.

[jetfuel495]

So you are generalizing an entire genre of music from just one band?


/argument.
Well, you caught me there. But it's still safe to say that Maiden had a big impact on the genre. You may or may not consider Motorhead to be part of the NWOBHM (I do), but I think they were the earliest metal band to actually get the energy and speed of punk rock into metal. That also played a big role. And someone in Saxon (can't remember who) said something about them hearing a punk band and thinking "if these guys can do it than anyone can make a band" and that's what inspired him, or something along those lines.

So three bands :P

Haha dude some of my friends listen to Bullet For My Valentine and similar shitty metalcore bands and I insult them, too.

Not because I'm a metal purist - I don't even listen to metal - but because it sounds like shit.

Well, that's your opinion. And I respect that. But you should respect theirs, too. Can't just go around talking crap to everybody. If you don't like something, just let it be.

[Metalhead636]

See, even though you named three bands, you are still generalizing a whole genre from a few bands. You are contradicting your previous argument.

[jetfuel495]

See, even though you named three bands, you are still generalizing a whole genre from a few bands. You are contradicting your previous argument.
But that's pretty much the characteristics of the genre. It's like death metal having death growls.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Not today's hardcore, of course. The hardcore punk of the late 70's and early 80's. The only NWOBHM band that I really listen to is Iron Maiden, and even just in them, it's pretty evident that they combined punk and metal. A few riffs here and there, powerchorded verses and bridges, fast tempo, and a solo. It was much more distinct in their earlier songs (like Murders in the Rue Morgue), before it started changing a bit into the sound they have now.

EDIT: the soundhouse tapes are a great example of the punk influence in Maiden.

You are officially the biggest hypocrite I have spoken to in a long time.
Go and find me some punk influence in Black Sabbath or Judas Priests music, then, considering they were around before punk.

The music is not a pathetic excuse for metal, because it's not trying to be metal. It's a blend. A hybrid, ffs.

BFMV acknowledge the fact that they play METALcore, and so do most other METALcore bands. Sure, Bullet attempted to add more METAL influence on the latest record, but they still know what they are. Same thing goes for After the Burial. They have a breakdown like every thirty seconds. How on earth is that "trying to be METAL" ?

You answered your own question there, dude.

Also, there is no such thing as hybrid genres in metal, the metal genres are:

Heavy Metal
Thrash Metal
Power Metal
Black Metal
Death Metal
Doom Metal

And that's it, anything else is overthinking and stupid.

[Metalhead636]

But that's pretty much the characteristics of the genre. It's like death metal having death growls.

He have already had an argument with someone about this same thing. Go to the Bands You Love to Hate thread.

Not all death metal is growls.

[jetfuel495]

You are officially the biggest hypocrite I have spoken to in a long time.
Go and find me some punk influence in Black Sabbath or Judas Priests music, then, considering they were around before punk.



You answered your own question there, dude.

Also, there is no such thing as hybrid genres in metal, the metal genres are:

Heavy Metal
Thrash Metal
Power Metal
Black Metal
Death Metal
Doom Metal

And that's it, anything else is overthinking and stupid.
Who the hell said anything about Sabbath and Priest? Sabbath was straight up metal, and Priest had the impact on NWOBHM. Not vice versa.

He have already had an argument with someone about this same thing. Go to the Bands You Love to Hate thread.

Not all death metal is growls.
Right, like prog death, some tech death, and melodic death. I know this.

Oh, and this, from an article I found on Diamond-Head.net

"NWOBHM bands were inspired by punk and its DIY ethic in various ways:
they played faster and louder than the previous generation of rockers, and they were
much less likely to be influenced by the blues. Being proficient on your instrument
wasn’t a major consideration: energy was as important as virtuosity. If you didn’t
have a major label deal, that didn’t matter either: you simply recorded and put
things out yourself. That’s what Maiden did with The Soundhouse Tapes and what
Def Leppard did with their debut release, the Getcha Rocks Off EP."

There's your punk influence.

And yes, that article is about NWOBHM in its entirety.

[Metalhead636]

But that's pretty much the characteristics of the genre. It's like death metal having death growls.


Not all death metal is growls.


Right, like prog death, some tech death, and melodic death. I know this.



There. You contradicted yourself. Again!

[jetfuel495]

There. You contradicted yourself. Again!
Sub genres and offshoots didn't apply. I was referring to standard old-school death metal, not death metal in its entirety.

Are you people more concerned about answering my arguments or trying to pick out the flaws?

[Metalhead636]

I only have time for flawless arguments.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Who the hell said anything about Sabbath and Priest? Sabbath was straight up metal, and Priest had the impact on NWOBHM. Not vice versa.

Priest are often referred to as NWOBHM, which is why I mentioned them, dipshit.

Right, like prog death, some tech death, and melodic death. I know this.

Stop making up genres, it all falls under Death Metal, simple as that.

NWOBHM bands were inspired by punk and its DIY ethic in various ways:
they played faster and louder than the previous generation of rockers, and they were
much less likely to be influenced by the blues. Being proficient on your instrument
wasn’t a major consideration: energy was as important as virtuosity. If you didn’t
have a major label deal, that didn’t matter either: you simply recorded and put
things out yourself. That’s what Maiden did with The Soundhouse Tapes and what
Def Leppard did with their debut release, the Getcha Rocks Off There's your punk influence.

Where is the virtuousity in Punk? Punk is purposely played badly because it focuses on ENERGY rather than MUSICIANSHIP, which means there's no room for virtuouso talent in Punk.
And bands have always been recording and putting things out themself.

[jetfuel495]

Priest are often referred to as NWOBHM, which is why I mentioned them, dipshit.



Stop making up genres, it all falls under Death Metal, simple as that.



Where is the virtuousity in Punk? Punk is purposely played badly because it focuses on ENERGY rather than MUSICIANSHIP, which means there's no room for virtuouso talent in Punk.
And bands have always been recording and putting things out themself.

If you read what I said, I told you clear as day: Priest impacted NWOBHM, not the other way around. They basically re-wrote it, taking a lot of the punk out.

You think I'm making genres up? Those are legitimate sub-genres, you can ask anybody that. Or do you not have a single idea of what you're talking about again?

And the satement in the article about proficiency was focusing on punk. Duh. Bands like Sabbath were technically proficient (by that era's standards), the punk bands were not. And in the very beginning, NWOBHM struck a balance (not a perfect balance, they still leaned towards the tech side).

I only have time for flawless arguments.
Nothing's perfect. Sue me.

EDIT: And Sabbath is not NWOBHM! They were around before that.

EDIT2: And I may be a hypocrite, but at least I'm not a shit-talking hypocrite who can't back up what he says *cough*ZIGGY*cough*

[WongSifu]

Sabbath is more doom metal-y than NWOBHM.

[Metalhead636]

Sabbath is more doom metal-y than NWOBHM.

:gtfo:

They are neither. They are just pure Heavy Metal.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

If you read what I said, I told you clear as day: Priest impacted NWOBHM, not the other way around. They basically re-wrote it, taking a lot of the punk out.

Priest started the NWOBHM.

You think I'm making genres up? Those are legitimate sub-genres, you can ask anybody that. Or do you not have a single idea of what you're talking about again?

There are NO subgenres in metal, I already pointed this out. You are an overthinking moron just like the people who make up these "subgenres" to make their band feel special.

EDIT: And Sabbath is not NWOBHM! They were around before that.

Fine, replace Sabbath with the NWOBHM band that sounds most like them, Witchfinder General, GO!

[WongSifu]

:gtfo:

They are neither. They are just pure Heavy Metal.

Naw, they're pretty blues influenced, bro.

[jetfuel495]

Stylistically, Sabbath are more doom. They were the fathers of the genre.

Priest formed in 69, well before NWOBHM.

And if there are no sub genres, why bother distinguishing the first wave from the new wave?

[Tweek]

I think you are referencing the DIY ethic and attitude of punk and hardcore punk more than the sound.
Weren't you originally talking about how the hardcore sound played a big part in 80 Brit metal?

[jetfuel495]

I think you are referencing the DIY ethic and attitude of punk and hardcore punk more than the sound.
Weren't you originally talking about how the hardcore sound played a big part in 80 Brit metal?

yeah, but not just British metal. Happened with thrash as well. The ethic did play a big role as well. But early Maiden did have a punk-y edge to it.

EDIT: and metalhead, if you're only looking for perfect arguments, wouldn't you basically be looking for defeat? There's no getting around a perfect argument, unless it's a very weak one

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Stylistically, Sabbath are more doom. They were the fathers of the genre.

Priest formed in 69, well before NWOBHM.

And if there are no sub genres, why bother distinguishing the first wave from the new wave?

Sabbath are Doom Metal.

Priest didn't release their first "proper" metal album untill 1976, Rocka Rolla is not generally considered to be a metal record.

Waves are completely different from subgenres. Examples being:

First wave of Black Metal: Venom, Celtic Frost, Mercyful Fate, Sarcofago, early Sodom, early Destruction etc.

Second wave of Black Metal: Mayhem, Burzum, Darkthrone, Satyricon, Immortal, Emperor etc.

Both waves have some different elements and generally have a different sound, but are still Black Metal.

First wave of Death Metal: Slayer, Morbid Angel, Death, Sepultura, Celtic Frost, Possessed, Necrophagia etc.

Second wave of Death Metal: Cannibal Corpse, Obituary, Grave, Carcass, In Flames, At The Gates etc.

Both waves have some different elements and generally have a different sound, but are still Death Metal.

[WongSifu]

Isn't Slayer usually labeled as thrash though?

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Yes but they also come under the first wave of Death Metal for the major influence they had on the genre.

[jetfuel495]

Well at least we agree on Sabbath.

And as for the waves thing, I see what you mean. I'm just so used to thinking of NWOBHM as it's own genre that I confuse myself.

But I wouldn't call Slayer death metal and I would never stick In Flames or At The Gates in the same category as CC.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Glad you get the waves thing.

I would call Slayer's early stuff Death Metal, I mean the very early stuff. Hell Awaits, Haunting the Chapel, Live UnDead etc.

I wasn't sticking them in a category, but all of them do fall under Death Metal, sure they may have different elements (which I admit, they do) but at the very roots of their music, they are Death Metal bands.

EDIT: Just out of interest, here's what the most important Metal site on the net classifies Sabbath as:

Black Sabbath
Genre(s)
Heavy/Traditional, Doom Metal
Lyrical theme(s)
Doom, Drugs, Life, Death, Religion

[jetfuel495]

Glad you get the waves thing.

I would call Slayer's early stuff Death Metal, I mean the very early stuff. Hell Awaits, Haunting the Chapel, Live UnDead etc.

I wasn't sticking them in a category, but all of them do fall under Death Metal, sure they may have different elements (which I admit, they do) but at the very roots of their music, they are Death Metal bands.

Aye, see, now you're speaking with sense.

EDIT: Maybe I'll come back tomorrow with new threads to properly discuss these topics. And maybe even a special surprise thread that's sure to grind everyones gears :P (assuming, of course, none of these threads have been done)

[hollywood_maggot]

Ziggy, Australian Hardcore sucks, everyone knows that. The good stuff from here is stupendously hard to find because of the sheer mountains of crappy local bands that copy each other.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Aye, see, now you're speaking with sense.


It's what I started saying as soon as you mentioned "subgenres". I just simplified it. A few slightly different elements, such as more melodic riffs or vocals, progressive elements, more technicality in the musicianship etc does not need to be labeled under a new genre just because they are slightly different. Ya dig?

EDIT:
Also hollywood, I know what your saying, but I was really using Australia just as an example, because it's the "scene" I know the most about. All hardcore I've heard has really sounded the same to me. I listened to a "classic" album by Terror, and one by Sick of it All and while the bands sounded slightly different, to me there wasn't much variety between songs. Just the same fast, short, chuggachuggachugga stuff.

[jetfuel495]

I'm pretty anal when it comes to genres XD

But not extremely. Never as bad as the guys over at The Metal Archives. Now THOSE GUYS are anal. I'd never label anything as atmospheric death metal or technical melodic death. Or blackened-doom, deathblack, or melodic doom/death.

I just use these extra labels as attributes rather than sections so I can keep everything in my iTunes library organized :P

EDIT: sub-genres, that is. I don't think there's room for many new genres to be formed. All the sub-genres I say always fall under the main one.

[hollywood_maggot]

Melodeath is a real, definable genre though, it's not really that anal to define that one.

Hey, don't speak too soon. -Core and Death Metal are both relatively recent genres. Just at the moment there is a bit of a sub-genre craze on. Eventually the industry will get over it.

[jetfuel495]

Melodeath is a real, definable genre though, it's not really that anal to define that one.

Hey, don't speak too soon. -Core and Death Metal are both relatively recent genres. Just at the moment there is a bit of a sub-genre craze on. Eventually the industry will get over it.

I agree, but would melodeath be a sub genre of death metal or an entirely new genre? I've been murdered both ways on that one. Some people have even tried to convince me that there's a difference between melodeath and melodic death metal. I wasn't buying it.

[Pelican Man]

Uhhh, quite a few Australian shitcore bands have gotten international attention :indiff: ever heard of Parkway Drive (sorry Peliman)? I Killed the Prom Queen?

Don't forget Behind Crimson Eyes, House vs Hurricane and Forgiven Rival. I'll tell you when I remember more bands I like ;;

[Tempest]

Mathcore is the best core, grindcore is the worst core, everything else is shit nobody cares about.

Seriously, 3 pages of this?

[jetfuel495]

Mathcore is the best core, grindcore is the worst core, everything else is shit nobody cares about.

Seriously, 3 pages of this?

Mathcore is the stuff right there. But according to our friend Ziggy, there's no difference between Ion Dissonance and Chiodos, because "all core music sounds the same"

[Mr. Wink]

This entire thread scares me a little.

[jetfuel495]

This entire thread scares me a little.

Yeah, but it's the perfect thread and just what I needed for what I'm doing.

[Mr. Wink]

Yeah, but it's the perfect thread and just what I needed for what I'm doing.

Masturbating?

[jetfuel495]

^Maybe...

Hah, no, I'll tell you guys before I go. Don't worry.

[exetra]

Masturbating?

HURR DURPA DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

The thing for me about those subtle differences between some "genres" is khat the difference they make doesn't really justify a new sub or sub-sub genre, seeing as the difference is rarely anything groundbreaking or extraordinary.

I don't like using the term "hardcore" though because it means anything from shitty scene metal to fast paced heavy techno to thrashy underground punk to whatever hardcore will mean next week. Stupid word.

[jetfuel495]

I agree, subtle differences don't count for much at all. Which is why I can't stand terms like "progressive sludge metal" or some crap like that.

Hardcore only means faggy scene metal when used incorrectly. The other two definitions are pretty legit

[Soupman]

You are not saying there is no such thing as subgenres in metal are you? It is generally accepted that there is a fuckload of metal subgenres whether you like it or not.

This is death metal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkwWWF1F2m8

and this is death metal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIMW0aHN0ks

But the difference is obviously pretty damn big, so it is quite practical that we all agree on the fact that Dark Tranquillity is melodic death metal and Origin is technical death metal. Metal definetly has subgenres, and they are used all the time by everyone
:facts:

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Melodeath is a real, definable genre though, it's not really that anal to define that one.

Hey, don't speak too soon. -Core and Death Metal are both relatively recent genres. Just at the moment there is a bit of a sub-genre craze on. Eventually the industry will get over it.

Death Metal isn't really recent considering it started in the early 80s.
Death Metal with extra melody thrown in doesn't make a complete new genre.

Don't forget Behind Crimson Eyes, House vs Hurricane and Forgiven Rival. I'll tell you when I remember more bands I like ;;

You know I love you Peliman.

Mathcore is the stuff right there. But according to our friend Ziggy, there's no difference between Ion Dissonance and Chiodos, because "all core music sounds the same"

What is Mathcore?

Exetra pretty much summed up what I mean about subgenres quite nicely.

[jetfuel495]

Death metal with melody is just death metal with melody. Melodic death metal is a bit more than that. There are musical differences, stylistic differences, and lyrical differences. Melodeath usually follows the sounds of Gothenburg (but there are exceptions). Most consider the Gothenburg three to be the fathers of the genre, but others point towards bands such as Sentenced and that one album that I've been trying to get a hold of forever -.-

Mathcore is a hardcore sub genre for bands like Ion Dissonance, The Dillinger Escape Plan, Protest the Hero (although some consider them to be prog metal) and others. They focus on frequent tempo/key/time signature changes (like a lot of prog metal bands) and technical, sometimes dissonant, riffs/leads. Some are really heavy, others aren't as heavy. There's a Wiki page that'll explain it better than me.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Death metal with melody is just death metal with melody. Melodic death metal is a bit more than that. There are musical differences, stylistic differences, and lyrical differences. Melodeath usually follows the sounds of Gothenburg (but there are exceptions). Most consider the Gothenburg three to be the fathers of the genre, but others point towards bands such as Sentenced and that one album that I've been trying to get a hold of forever -.-

At the roots they are still Death Metal, though, which makes them Death Metal bands. I listen to a few so called "Melodeath" bands but I just call them death metal, because that's what they are when it all comes down to it.

Mathcore is a hardcore sub genre for bands like Ion Dissonance, The Dillinger Escape Plan, Protest the Hero (although some consider them to be prog metal) and others. They focus on frequent tempo/key/time signature changes (like a lot of prog metal bands) and technical, sometimes dissonant, riffs/leads. Some are really heavy, others aren't as heavy. There's a Wiki page that'll explain it better than me.

I'd personally call it prog-metal, but I guess Mathcore can be considered it's own genre. Personally, though, the bands I've heard from that genre really don't sound like "core" music so I had no idea they were called this. Other than that, though, every "core" band I have heard has sounded the same except for stupid Metalcore choruses that sound stupid.

[Soupman]

At the roots they are still Death Metal, though, which makes them Death Metal bands. I listen to a few so called "Melodeath" bands but I just call them death metal, because that's what they are when it all comes down to it.

Their roots are Death Metal sure, but they are not just "so called Melodeath bands". Melodeath is accepted by.. well everyone else I have ever spoken to in real life or on the internet

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Meldeath is just a stupid way of over thinking for the bands to try and make themselves feel special for doing something slightly different. Bands like Arch Enemy, Dark Tranquillity, Kalmah etc are STILL DEATH METAL AT THEIR ROOTS which is what I've been saying all along. Subgenres are silly.

[Metalhead636]

Sub-genres are just a way for fans to justify themselves being picky.

[Soupman]

But quite practical considering the diversity of metal bands. Some people like Melodeath and Progressive Death Metal, but can't stand Brutal Death metal, therefore subgenres are quite useful

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

No, some people like Opeth or In Flames, but don't like Suffocation. No need to be stupid by classifying them as a different genre entirely just because you don't like one or two bands.

[Metalhead636]

Also it is much easier to say, "I like most death metal" than it is to say, "I like progressive death metal and melodic death metal, but don't like yadda yadda yadda."

[exetra]

But the difference is obviously pretty damn big, so it is quite practical that we all agree on the fact that Dark Tranquillity is melodic death metal and Origin is technical death metal.

If melodic death metal and technical death metal are still death metal, why the need for the redundant sub-sub genre? It's not so much a new genre as an adjective added at the front to describe the sound :indiff:

[jetfuel495]

If sub genres are just a way of being picky, then forget it. Why not just call everything metal? After all, their roots are all heavy metal.

/sarcasm

Yes, I am a picky bastard.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Being picky is just immature when it comes to music, especially metal. The 6 (7 if you wanna include prog metal) genres are there to give you an OUTLINE of what a band plays, not to be picked apart and made into subgenres because of the slight differences.

[jetfuel495]

Oh, right, and calling people immature because they have different views than you must be really mature.

Who makes sub genres out of the slightest differences? As I said, slight differences don't make sub genres. You may think I'm over analyzing but I think you're just being too broad. Again, that's where opinions come in, and apparently some of us are "immature" for not sharing the same ones.

[hoopymo]

If melodic death metal and technical death metal are still death metal, why the need for the redundant sub-sub genre? It's not so much a new genre as an adjective added at the front to describe the sound :indiff:


Because the names aren't BROOTL enough :rock:

[jetfuel495]

Actually, yeah, when exetera said that they were adjectives, that coincides perfectly when I said they were like attributes. Legitimate attributes which I use in my iTunes library.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Oh, right, and calling people immature because they have different views than you must be really mature.

Who makes sub genres out of the slightest differences? As I said, slight differences don't make sub genres. You may think I'm over analyzing but I think you're just being too broad. Again, that's where opinions come in, and apparently some of us are "immature" for not sharing the same ones.

I wasn't calling you immature as a person. It is over analysing a subject which doesn't need to be over analysed.

Actually, yeah, when exetera said that they were adjectives, that coincides perfectly when I said they were like attributes. Legitimate attributes which I use in my iTunes library.

Those adjectives represent ELEMENTS of the music. I don't care if you use them in your iTunes, that's personal preferrence, but they are not different genres. Making something more technical or melodic but keeping the roots the same does not make a new genre.

[jetfuel495]

I wasn't calling you immature as a person. It is over analysing a subject which doesn't need to be over analysed.


Well, that's good to hear.

Those adjectives represent ELEMENTS of the music. I don't care if you use them in your iTunes, that's personal preferrence, but they are not different genres. Making something more technical or melodic but keeping the roots the same does not make a new genre.

Right, doesn't make a new genre, but a new sub-genre (or style of the genre, if you prefer). It's like making the distinction between a regular coupe and a two door sports car. In the end, they're both coupes, but different kinds of coupes. Two doors, four wheels. One is quicker and lighter than the other, but the substantial increase in power and decrease in weight is what sets it apart. Like death metal and melodic death metal. When it comes down to basics, like the number of doors, they're both death metal. But when it comes down to specifics, like engine power and size, they're put into different sub-categories. One's a sports car and one isn't, but they're both coupes. That's my two cents on it.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Explain to me the differences, in detail, between Melodeath and Death Metal, then.

[jetfuel495]

Explain to me the differences, in detail, between Melodeath and Death Metal, then.

In Flames literally said in an interview that they wanted to combine the brutality of death metal with the melodies and dual guitar harmonies of Iron Maiden. Melodic death metal makes the use of melody a lot more often, as well. Some death metal commonly lacks melody at times. This isn't a bad thing in my opinion. Otherwise I wouldn't be listening to Death, old-school Amorphis, The Monolith Deathcult, etc.

Melodeath also uses clean vocals in addition to death growls. Depending on the band, they may be nonexistent, rare, or even heavily used. Dark Tranquillity's Projector album is a good example of this. Plenty of clean vocals, as well as death growls. They reverted back to a growl-only style later on.

Aside from the vocals, the music is different as well. As stated, dual guitar harmonies play a very big role. Not sure about their involvement in early death metal, though. Plus, many of the riffs are written in the same patterns/styles as well, which are very different from standard old school death metal.

Clean/acoustic guitars are used a lot as well. Blast beats are also less common.

Lyrical content, for the most part, is very different. A good chunk of death metal deals with, well... death. Death, social commentary, violence, and then some others. Some melodeath sometimes talks about violence, but not nearly as much, nor as deeply. Death metal sometimes focused on violence way too much (insert CC lyrics here). Of course, there are the exceptions (most fresh in my mind are post-Human lyrics from Death).

Melodeath lyrics vary across a lot of different subjects, including death, social commentary, and sometimes violence. But they extend beyond that to topics such as love, relationships, the downfall of mankind, battles, history, fantasy, sorrow, and a bunch of other junk.

I'm cramped for time right now, so I'll be back in a while. In the meantime, I'll just leave these links:

Melodeath:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0v_s93l4P0 - Punish my Heaven - Dark Tranquillity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhnDHC8Iwbk - Nether Novas - Dark Tranquillity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQaBtUZA7c0 - Jotun - In Flames

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTUvYutNkFg - Daughter of the Moon - Insomnium (this is probably one of the best examples in my mind. This band kicks ass)

I'll be back eventually, hopefully some of these videos (especially the last one) will give you a better idea of why we like to keep melodeath seperate

[WongSifu]

Math rock > mathcore, in my opinion. But then that's because I think mathcore is pretty hit-and-miss. For example, I LOVE The Dillinger Escape Plan, but I can't stand The Number Twelve Looks Like You at all.

[SLjimbolian]

Just lock the damn thread already. This is making my head hurt. Metal listeners are those most anal music listeners ever.

[Metalhead636]

Hey, that is just a misconception based around a small group of people.

We should make the "Metal Debate Thread" however.

[jetfuel495]

Just lock the damn thread already. This is making my head hurt. Metal listeners are those most anal music listeners ever.

Metal? This thread isn't about metal :P

And yes, we're anal. Up the ass. But don't confuse that with elitism.

EDIT: I'm only referring to those of us that are anal, of course.

EDIT 2:
Math rock > mathcore, in my opinion. But then that's because I think mathcore is pretty hit-and-miss. For example, I LOVE The Dillinger Escape Plan, but I can't stand The Number Twelve Looks Like You at all.
Never listened to any math rock, but I'll agree 1000% that mathcore is hit and miss. 12 is just annoying. And I don't see how the number twelve can look like anyone =/

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Melodeath also uses clean vocals in addition to death growls. Depending on the band, they may be nonexistent, rare, or even heavily used. Dark Tranquillity's Projector album is a good example of this. Plenty of clean vocals, as well as death growls. They reverted back to a growl-only style later on.

Alot of Black Metal bands also use clean vocals as well as the usual shrieks, are you gonna call these bands Meloblack?


Aside from the vocals, the music is different as well. As stated, dual guitar harmonies play a very big role. Not sure about their involvement in early death metal, though. Plus, many of the riffs are written in the same patterns/styles as well, which are very different from standard old school death metal.

Clean/acoustic guitars are used a lot as well. Blast beats are also less common.

Alot of bands in EVERY genre of metal use duel guitars, clean guitars and sometimes acoustic guitars, does this mean they should be called Melo[genre]?

Lyrical content, for the most part, is very different. A good chunk of death metal deals with, well... death. Death, social commentary, violence, and then some others. Some melodeath sometimes talks about violence, but not nearly as much, nor as deeply. Death metal sometimes focused on violence way too much (insert CC lyrics here). Of course, there are the exceptions (most fresh in my mind are post-Human lyrics from Death).

Melodeath lyrics vary across a lot of different subjects, including death, social commentary, and sometimes violence. But they extend beyond that to topics such as love, relationships, the downfall of mankind, battles, history, fantasy, sorrow, and a bunch of other junk.

Lyrical content does not a genre make.

I'm cramped for time right now, so I'll be back in a while. In the meantime, I'll just leave these links:

Melodeath:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0v_s93l4P0 - Punish my Heaven - Dark Tranquillity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhnDHC8Iwbk - Nether Novas - Dark Tranquillity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQaBtUZA7c0 - Jotun - In Flames

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTUvYutNkFg - Daughter of the Moon - Insomnium (this is probably one of the best examples in my mind. This band kicks ass)

I'll be back eventually, hopefully some of these videos (especially the last one) will give you a better idea of why we like to keep melodeath seperate

I listen to DT occasionally. Not big on In Flames but I'll check out the Insomnium vid because I've heard good things about them.

[jetfuel495]

Alot of Black Metal bands also use clean vocals as well as the usual shrieks, are you gonna call these bands Meloblack?

Discussion isn't about black metal. And, the Metal Archives considers Dissection's early work to be Melodic black metal xD. I don't necessarily agree with it.

How often do you hear clean vocals in Cannibal Corpse or Death?


Alot of bands in EVERY genre of metal use duel guitars, clean guitars and sometimes acoustic guitars, does this mean they should be called Melo[genre]?

How many strict old school death metal bands do you hear using clean/acoustic guitars? Nobody plays the "grandpas guitars".



Lyrical content does not a genre make.


But it can have a big impact when paired with other things. For instance, lyrics are extremely important in punk as well as black metal.

Also, consider this: If a death metal band were to start writing fast paced songs with an epic symphonic sound about dragons and swords, that wouldn't be very death metal, would it?


I listen to DT occasionally. Not big on In Flames but I'll check out the Insomnium vid because I've heard good things about them.

Insomnium is probably one of my favorite melodeath bands ever. I'm pumped for their new record this fall.

EDIT: hahaha I love how we started this discussion on whether BFMV were deathcore or not and we ended up here :P

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Discussion isn't about black metal. And, the Metal Archives considers Dissection's early work to be Melodic black metal xD. I don't necessarily agree with it.

Metal Archives can be edited by almost anyone, which sometimes leads to stuff like that.

How often do you hear clean vocals in Cannibal Corpse or Death?

Chucks vocals were pretty clean if you ask me. Or DieHard for that matter, he's the Death expert.

How many strict old school death metal bands do you hear using clean/acoustic guitars? Nobody plays the "grandpas guitars".

A few, not many, but it is in there.

But it can have a big impact when paired with other things. For instance, lyrics are extremely important in punk as well as black metal.

Still not genre-defining.

Also, consider this: If a death metal band were to start writing fast paced songs with an epic symphonic sound about dragons and swords, that wouldn't be very death metal, would it?

No but it would be fucking awesome.

Insomnium is probably one of my favorite melodeath bands ever. I'm pumped for their new record this fall.

That song was alright. I'd still just call it DM, though.

[WongSifu]

Never listened to any math rock

It's like equally unpredictable as mathcore, but it's just way cleaner. I recommend Tera Melos - Drugs to the Dear Youth or A Complex Full of Phantoms

[jetfuel495]

It's like equally unpredictable as mathcore, but it's just way cleaner. I recommend Tera Melos - Drugs to the Dear Youth or A Complex Full of Phantoms

That sounds interesting, I'll check it out. Thanks, man.

Metal Archives can be edited by almost anyone, which sometimes leads to stuff like that.

True, those are the people who get really anal :P


Chucks vocals were pretty clean if you ask me. Or DieHard for that matter, he's the Death expert.


Relatively, maybe, but not as clean as Stanne's on Nether Novas.


A few, not many, but it is in there.


Still more common in MDM


Still not genre-defining.


Still influential


No but it would be fucking awesome.


Fuck yeah. I'd call it powerdeath :P


That song was alright. I'd still just call it DM, though.

I would too, if I was being broad. But broad is a relative measure, so, eh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5IpHczLeV8 - This one's better. Heavier and faster.

I just listened to my first folk metal song LOL

[Pelican Man]

This genre stuff is bullshit. Everyone knows the umbrella genres, right? Rock, Metal, Punk, Jazz, Blues, Country, Folk, Electronic, Hip-Hop, Reggae, Traditional, Classical.
That's pretty much it, anything else is some weird mix of those, or a different culture or different learning's interpretation of it. Heck, some of those could kind of be seen as mixes of each other.

Edit; and the point I'm actually MAKING here, is that all these sub genres are doing, is telling you what's mixed with what, and how high a concentration there is of each.
For instance: metalcore and modern hardcore are both metal crossed with punk. Metalcore's more 2/3 metal 1/3 punk, and hardcore's 1/3 metal 2/3 punk.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

True, those are the people who get really anal :P

Yeah, they should moderate it more, but what can ya do?

Relatively, maybe, but not as clean as Stanne's on Nether Novas.

Still makes your point redundant.

Still more common in MDM
Still influential

Just because it's more common or influential, does not make it a completely new genre, or "subgenre" as you like to call it.

Fuck yeah. I'd call it powerdeath :P

I'd call it Death Metal with power metal elements if I was gonna be picky and silly.

I would too, if I was being broad. But broad is a relative measure, so, eh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5IpHczLeV8 - This one's better. Heavier and faster.

It's still just Death Metal, it does not need an adjective to make it feel special.

[jetfuel495]

This genre stuff is bullshit. Everyone knows the umbrella genres, right? Rock, Metal, Punk, Jazz, Blues, Country, Folk, Electronic, Hip-Hop, Reggae, Traditional, Classical.
That's pretty much it, anything else is some weird mix of those, or a different culture or different learning's interpretation of it. Heck, some of those could kind of be seen as mixes of each other.
Some of us prefer to label the mixes/interpretations to make it easier to find similar music. If I wanted a band similar to Sonata Arctica I'd ask people about power metal so I could get specific responses rather than asking someone about "fast epic metal" in general. That could mean loads of things. And if I were to ask someone "What are some good bands like Edge of Sanity?" and they didn't know who they were, they would be useless. On the other hand, if that person listened to progressive death metal (specific type of death metal, specific type of metal, just like specific styles/makes/models/trims of cars) they could easily point me in the right direction.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just explaining the reasoning behind it. The main reason, at least. Some fucks just like to invent genres because they want to be unique. But not most people.

EDIT:


Edit; and the point I'm actually MAKING here, is that all these sub genres are doing, is telling you what's mixed with what, and how high a concentration there is of each.

For instance: metalcore and modern hardcore are both metal crossed with punk. Metalcore's more 2/3 metal 1/3 punk, and hardcore's 1/3 metal 2/3 punk.Ok, this right here just about sums it up.

EDIT 2:



I'd call it Death Metal with power metal elements if I was gonna be picky and silly.



That's a mouthful to say. I know, let's just create a portmanteau term to describe it! It'll be much easier.

They're just labels, nothing more.

[IronWire]

Some fucks just like to invent genres because they want to be unique. But not most people.

Like Mindless Self Indulgence, self titled Industrial Jungle Pussy Punk?

[jetfuel495]

Like Mindless Self Indulgence, self titled Industrial Jungle Pussy Punk?
haha wtf? Seriously?

They would do that...

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

EDIT 2:
That's a mouthful to say. I know, let's just create a portmanteau term to describe it! It'll be much easier.

They're just labels, nothing more.

Stupid labels, there are the main labels and that is all that's needed. If you want to describe a certain band more in depth, feel free to do so, but do not make up a new genre for them.

[jetfuel495]

Stupid labels, there are the main labels and that is all that's needed. If you want to describe a certain band more in depth, feel free to do so, but do not make up a new genre for them.
Not a new genre. A sub genre. Hell, they don't even need to be called "sub genres". Call them peniscakes if you want.

They don't count as seperate genres because they still fall under the main genre. Like an old Civic coupe has only a few noticeable differences from the Civic sedan, but they still fall under the category of Civic, which in turn, fall under Honda. Civic isn't the brand, it's just the make. Melodic death metal isn't its own seperate genre, it's an offshoot.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

I agree with that, but they do not need their own name. The extra adjectives would be better used just describing the band instead of calling itself a subgenre. Subgenres are just dumb.

[jetfuel495]

I agree with that, but they do not need their own name. The extra adjectives would be better used just describing the band instead of calling itself a subgenre. Subgenres are just dumb.
I guess that's how it started though, individual bands being described with extra adjectives as a certain way. Once that description comes, it's set in stone. That's probably how it happened with a lot of music. A reporter at woodstock who was listening to Hendrix said that "it sounded like heavy metal falling from the sky". That name definitely stuck.

When the big three of Gothenburg were making their major breakthroughs, they didn't say "oh, yeah, we're making melodic death metal". They just played what they wanted. Death metal with a new flair. And people began to describe these death metal bands as very melodic. So they probably started saying "oh yeah, this is some really melodic death metal", which led to the term melodic death metal.

Other genre names I can't speak for, but that's my guess on what happened with that.

EDIT: Why even bother calling it death metal? After all, it's just a sub genre of metal :p

How about power metal as well?

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

I understand calling it that if you're describing the sound to someone who's never heard it before, but labelling a band like that is dumb. It should be used as a description, not a label/genre/whatever. I'm done debating this now.

[jetfuel495]

Well, that's your opinion, and to each his own.

EDIT: wait, BFMV are still not deathcore. Just saying, cuz, you know, that was my original point.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

I never called them Deathcore, dude. I called them generic Metalcore/Hardcore.

[jetfuel495]

I never called them Deathcore, dude. I called them generic Metalcore/Hardcore.

I know, that other guy on the first page did. But then you said they all sounded the same. Somehow we ended up here.

[hollywood_maggot]

This thread makes for a very interesting read.

I will say now though, that if you don't care about sub-genres, ignore them. For me, they're pretty useful for working out what I want to listen to, and frankly working out which band belongs where is pretty interesting. Sub-genres don't restrict bands, because bands rarely pay attention to them.

[Pelican Man]

Some of us prefer to label the mixes/interpretations to make it easier to find similar music. rabble rabble rabble

Oh no, I understand that completely. What I mean is that none of those sub genres are anything special. They're not their own style, they've just taken something already existing and done their own interpretation of it, which hasn't differed too far from the original source.

Ok, this right here just about sums it up.

Thanks.

[hollywood_maggot]

Well, no, because some sub-genres do make it incredibly different from the original source, just not different enough to not be able to trace it back and label it.

Right now in music, it's kinda like how that dude once said everything that is discoverable had been discovered. No-one seems to think there can be a perfectly new genre.

[Pelican Man]

How different? I'm saying stuff like Doom Metal, Progressive Black Metal, Metalcore, Death Metal, Experimental Mathcore, etc are all Metal. Because 'Metal' isn't defined as whether it's thrashy, deep and droning, powerchords ahoy, whatever, it's all of it.

[hollywood_maggot]

Oh. You were just talking about the umbrella genres. Right. Nevermind then.

Although, it could be argued that death metal is actually beyond metal, seeing as when metal was first invented, it wasn't anywhere near as heavy and lacked many of death metals features. I think anyway, I'm probably horrifically wrong, but I figure making a statement will get an answer.

[Mr. Wink]

Heres a question, Why is it even called Metal? Whats Metallic about it?

[hollywood_maggot]

Why is Rock rock? Or Hip Hop, hip hop? That's just a dumb question.

EDIT: On further thought, rocks are hard. Metals are harder. Dunno why rock is rock, but metal is obviously referencing that.

Although, maybe Death Metal should be Diamond??

[exetra]

Diamond Metal. The only metal harder than that would be Dragonforce :hmm:

[Mr. Wink]

Why is Rock rock? Or Hip Hop, hip hop? That's just a dumb question.

EDIT: On further thought, rocks are hard. Metals are harder. Dunno why rock is rock, but metal is obviously referencing that.

Although, maybe Death Metal should be Diamond??

Hip Hop's called Hip Hop because it's hip and you hop to it. Duh. Dance is called dance because you dance to it. Rap's called rap because you rap it.

[Unspoken_Demise]

Hip Hop's called Hip Hop because it's hip and you hop to it. Duh. Dance is called dance because you dance to it. Rap's called rap because you rap it.
Rock is rock because it rocks. :facts:

[Soupman]

Jetfuel has got it. Subgenres exist and they are useful. Using subgenres is a way of actually saying what you mean. I like Post-Black Metal and Progressive Black Metal, but dislike pretty much all traditional Black Metal, by telling people that they might actually know what bands I like and might like. It would be easier to just say I like some Black Metal, but it would also acomplish a lot less, and people would have no idea what I actually liked.

Can't see the reason for all the hate on establishing subgenres, when there is clearly a difference between bands that fall under the same main genre of metal. Some people love most Melodic Death Metal bands because of their defining elements while hating Brutal Death Metal for it's defining elements. It is not just about inventing a whole new genre for one or two bands slightly different bands.


And Insomnium rocks

[hoopymo]

Math rock > mathcore,

Are those like songs about adding numbers like sesame street or some shit?


Also this thread pretty much sums up why metal can be really fucking annoying, just call it metal for fucks sake if i were like you i'd be calling the doors "contemporary jazzfusion blues rock" Instead of psychadelic rock.

[jetfuel495]

Jetfuel has got it.
And Insomnium rocks
Thanks, man. And indeed, they do.
Hip Hop's called Hip Hop because it's hip and you hop to it. Duh. Dance is called dance because you dance to it. Rap's called rap because you rap it.
Haha that's quite a clever explanation. Wikipedia has something on it, though. But most hip hop is rapping anyway. Hip hop is just deeper than rap, because hip hop was also a cultural movement.
Why is Rock rock?
I'm assuming that the name RocknRoll came from the swaying motion of the hips and knees that people made while dancing to it. I could be wrong, though
Heres a question, Why is it even called Metal? Whats Metallic about it?
A reporter once said that Jimi Hendrix's music sounded like heavy metal falling from the sky. Well, that's the rumour, at least.
This thread makes for a very interesting read.

I will say now though, that if you don't care about sub-genres, ignore them. For me, they're pretty useful for working out what I want to listen to, and frankly working out which band belongs where is pretty interesting. Sub-genres don't restrict bands, because bands rarely pay attention to them.
This, all the way.
Are those like songs about adding numbers like sesame street or some shit?





Also this thread pretty much sums up why metal can be really fucking annoying, just call it metal for fucks sake if i were like you i'd be calling the doors "contemporary jazzfusion blues rock" Instead of psychadelic rock.
No, psychedelic rock is right.

And that's not what math rock is :P

[Pelican Man]

Oh. You were just talking about the umbrella genres. Right. Nevermind then.

Although, it could be argued that death metal is actually beyond metal, seeing as when metal was first invented, it wasn't anywhere near as heavy and lacked many of death metals features. I think anyway, I'm probably horrifically wrong, but I figure making a statement will get an answer.

Death metal's an expansion of metal. It's old school metal, made harder, faster, heavier, etc.
So, yeah Death Metal probably IS beyond Metal, but it's kind of like the Hard Rock of Metal.

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Jetfuel has got it. Subgenres exist and they are useful. Using subgenres is a way of actually saying what you mean. I like Post-Black Metal and Progressive Black Metal, but dislike pretty much all traditional Black Metal, by telling people that they might actually know what bands I like and might like. It would be easier to just say I like some Black Metal, but it would also acomplish a lot less, and people would have no idea what I actually liked.

Can't see the reason for all the hate on establishing subgenres, when there is clearly a difference between bands that fall under the same main genre of metal. Some people love most Melodic Death Metal bands because of their defining elements while hating Brutal Death Metal for it's defining elements. It is not just about inventing a whole new genre for one or two bands slightly different bands.


And Insomnium rocks

I hate you. What the hell is Post Black Metal? Melodic Death Metal and Brutal Death Metal are still Death Metal, deal with it.

[Metalhead636]

I will say it again. Sub-genres are just to be picky and specific.

Also, the rumor I heard about metals name is Metal. It is harder than rock.

EDIT: Anyone else love that we derailed a year old thread on page one and dragged it three more pages?

[jetfuel495]

I hate you. What the hell is Post Black Metal? Melodic Death Metal and Brutal Death Metal are still Death Metal, deal with it.

Duh they're still death metal. Can you please tell me who is saying otherwise? Just a different style of death metal. Straight fits and loose fits are still Levi jeans. Just different styles.

[hoopymo]

MOTHER FUCKER CLOSE THE FUCKING THREAD ALREADY

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

Duh they're still death metal. Can you please tell me who is saying otherwise? Just a different style of death metal. Straight fits and loose fits are still Levi jeans. Just different styles.

They are Death Metal and that is that. No need for subgenres. I'm not discussing this anymore, you are wrong and that is that.

[Pelican Man]

MOTHER FUCKER CLOSE THE FUCKING THREAD ALREADY

FFFFFUUUUUCK

They are Death Metal and that is that. No need for subgenres. I'm not discussing this anymore, you are wrong and that is that.

Yeah, in that regard they're pretty pointless. Those kind of subgenres are just being picky. Death Metal can be melodic. It can also be brutal. It doesn't need to be pointed out. Fair enough if in the band bio or whatever they point out that they're mostly brutal or whatever, but it isn't needed in the genre.

[hollywood_maggot]

There is a need for subgenres, because it helps me find which bands I like. If you hate them so much, ignore them. For fucks sake, you're just being a complete arsehole.

[jetfuel495]

Well, I'm finally back from the dead.They are Death Metal and that is that. No need for subgenres. I'm not discussing this anymore, you are wrong and that is that.
I could just as easily say you are wrong and that is that. It's all subject to interpretations. Opinions =/= facts.
There is a need for subgenres, because it helps me find which bands I like. If you hate them so much, ignore them. For fucks sake, you're just being a complete arsehole.
I think he's the one playing devil's advocate now :P

Also, I asked another forum which I've been a part of much longer, and someone said this:

"Subgenres are very integral to metal due to the fact that it exemplifies metal's diversity and versatility for change and differentiality in the genre itself. Yes, they are important and whoever said that subgenres shouldn't exist in Metal is most likely wearing a Dave Matthews band T-shirt while playing Gamecube and drinking Nattie Ice."

[Pelican Man]

And congratulations, that last quote adds nothing new to the debate, other than another opinion. Every genre has "diversity and versatility for change and differentiality in the genre itself", metal isn't alone in that.

[exetra]

And you don't need a billion subgenres in order to point the diversity out. Are you so fucking dumb that if people don't call it "X Metal" you'll think it's "Y Metal"?

[Laurence]

I only listen to bands if they're defined by a pointless mishmash of self-propagating subgenres of a genre, the meanings of which are entirely subjective.

Oh, and nice quote.

"Subgenres are very integral to metal due to the fact that it exemplifies metal's diversity and versatility for change and differentiality in the genre itself. Yes, they are important and whoever said that subgenres shouldn't exist in Metal is most likely wearing a Dave Matthews band T-shirt while playing Gamecube and drinking Nattie Ice."

Yeah, and they guy who said that is probably wearing a black Slayer t-shirt and a spiked collar. Let's all aimlessly nullify our arguments with stereotypes.

[Pelican Man]

And you don't need a billion subgenres in order to point the diversity out. Are you so fucking dumb that if people don't call it "X Metal" you'll think it's "Y Metal"?

Yeah, pretty sure people should be able to tell what the band is after one listen. And I'd say it's pretty shit on the band's part too, locking themselves in to a specific aspect of a genre like that.

[exetra]

Sure, if you've never heard much metal before then you'd be forgiven for mistaking X for Y. But then again if you've never heard much metal before you probably don't give a shit about the differences either.

[jetfuel495]

Yeah, and they guy who said that is probably wearing a black Slayer t-shirt and a spiked collar. Let's all aimlessly nullify our arguments with stereotypes.
Considering the forum that I was on, that wouldn't surprise me. Quote was for laughs, in case everyone's sarcasometer was busted.

And the truth is, a lot of arguments in this thread have already been invalidated by stereotypes.

[xXAnarquiaXx]

The thing about this topic is that we could argue our opinions on this for days and days till we are all blue in the face. The fact of the matter is BFMV has gotten a lot softer, but if you look at all of the supposed "metal" from now a days, everyone has gotten softer. There is no true metal anymore on the mainstream, the fact is once a band goes mainstream they have record labels breathing down their throats telling them to fit in and be more poppy. The mainstream world is all pop and thats how it is, just like how punk died out to pop. If any of you want true metal or HxC go listen to old bands, OR go listen to underground music. Underground is the only people that have taste anymore. Still im a hardcore fan of BFMV so i still like there music, just prefer the old albums.

[WongSifu]

The thing about this topic is that we could argue our opinions on this for days and days till we are all blue in the face. The fact of the matter is BFMV has gotten a lot softer, but if you look at all of the supposed "metal" from now a days, everyone has gotten softer. There is no true metal anymore on the mainstream, the fact is once a band goes mainstream they have record labels breathing down their throats telling them to fit in and be more poppy. The mainstream world is all pop and thats how it is, just like how punk died out to pop. If any of you want true metal or HxC go listen to old bands, OR go listen to underground music. Underground is the only people that have taste anymore. Still im a hardcore fan of BFMV so i still like there music, just prefer the old albums.

I disagree with the bold statements, but that's subjective, so otherwise I more or less agree. Though, it depends on what you count as mainstream. Do you mean only things that get frequent radio play like top 40s? Or do you mean relatively well-known bands such as Queens of the Stone Age or Mastodon or something else like that? If it's the latter, then I definitely disagree with the first bold statement. But as far as metal in the mainstream, it's not so much just softer then it is a completely different genre. Most of what people would call mainstream metal is just metalcore, as already discussed in this topic (I think).

[hollywood_maggot]

The thing about this topic is that we could argue our opinions on this for days and days till we are all blue in the face. The fact of the matter is BFMV has gotten a lot softer, but if you look at all of the supposed "metal" from now a days, everyone has gotten softer. There is no true metal anymore on the mainstream, the fact is once a band goes mainstream they have record labels breathing down their throats telling them to fit in and be more poppy. The mainstream world is all pop and thats how it is, just like how punk died out to pop. If any of you want true metal or HxC go listen to old bands, OR go listen to underground music. Underground is the only people that have taste anymore. Still im a hardcore fan of BFMV so i still like there music, just prefer the old albums.

First off, no-one was discussing BFMV, in fact I'm fairly sure everyone in the discussion don't actually like them in the first place.

Secondly, well that's not true, In Flames are pretty mainstream. And it doesn't simply go Mainstream - Underground. Underground suggests not many people know about it, while Mainstream suggests practically everybody does. There is a middle ground, and thats where ALOT of bands fall.

And that ties in with the third point, as those inbetween bands are probably what you're referring to as underground music. Alot of actual underground metal music is pretty shitty, because they're just copy cat bands no-one pays attention to.

[exetra]

All metal is shit and the fans are usually shittier. Discussion over.

Also, if your name is girted by the letter X then your opinion is invalidated on the grounds that you're a retard.

[hollywood_maggot]

You're the one with a purposeful mis-spelling for a name. Metal is awesome. So shut the fuck up.

[exetra]

Metal is gay and you're not going to change my opinion or anyone elses with useless circlejerk disucssion about shit that doesn't matter and nor will I.

[hollywood_maggot]

I wasn't attempting to change your opinion, I was attempting to make you shut up about your gay opinion, as this is obviously a metal discussion thread and you just want to bring attention to your sorry little arse.

[exetra]

Noone cares about metal except you guys. Cut your hair and get a job.

[hollywood_maggot]

..Um, except the thousands upon thousands...probably millions, who listen to it. Epic generalisation ftl.

[exetra]

All I hear is "URGH METAL IS SO GOOD AND UR GAY LOL".

[Pelican Man]

I think this thread has thoroughly cleaned me out of popcorn.

[hollywood_maggot]

All I hear is "URGH METAL IS SO GOOD AND UR GAY LOL".

And all I hear is 'BLAH BLAH METAL IS GAY AND SO R U, WHEREAS I AM THE EPTIMONE OF AWESOME'. Get a load of yourself. Every genre has the same thing going on, people like what they listen to and not what they don't, its not only metalheads. Also, most metalheads listen to rather alot more than metal.

[Pelican Man]

And all I hear is 'BLAH BLAH METAL IS GAY AND SO R U, WHEREAS I AM THE EPTIMONE OF AWESOME'. Get a load of yourself. Every genre has the same thing going on, people like what they listen to and not what they don't, its not only metalheads. Also, most metalheads listen to rather alot more than metal.

Cite your sources.

[hollywood_maggot]

...All the metalheads I know and have met, including myself? You do get those who only listen to metal, and they're not so cool, but most of the ones I know will listen to a fairly large variety.

[Pelican Man]

So, all the metalheads you know = most metalheads?

[hollywood_maggot]

Yes, it was a generalization. *sigh* You didn't call extra up on his, why call me up on mine? Because I was being a hypocrite?

[Pelican Man]

Because you're so very serious about it, and he's not.

[hollywood_maggot]

...How the fuck can you tell that? O.o I mean, sure he was making jokes, but people do that when they're serious as well.

[Pelican Man]

Because it's exetra.

[hollywood_maggot]

I never can tell with him. Guess I haven't been around long enough to have the measure of him.

[exetra]

You're gay and your butt smells.

[Pelican Man]

I would like to contest this issue in a most serious manner, sir.

[hollywood_maggot]

You're right of course, my butt does smell.

[exetra]

I'm right about everything I've ever said ever.

[jetfuel495]

Metal is gay and you're not going to change my opinion or anyone elses with useless circlejerk disucssion about shit that doesn't matter and nor will I.

Union Jake?

[exetra]

HURRR DURRR METALS R GUD LOLOL

:facts:

[jetfuel495]

lol :lol:

When you said circlejerk I thought you were making a UJ reference.

[exetra]

Yes because I totally know what you're talking about since circlejerk is a word exclusively assosciated with whatever it is.

[Tweek]

I thought of a bunch of sweaty naked dudes sitting around stroking each other to climax.

[exetra]

I'd like to think of it as a game of soggy sao.

[Tweek]

It must be the hippy in me that prefers the teamwork and community.

[Raxo]

Circlejerking to metal doesn't sound so bad.

[jetfuel495]

Yes because I totally know what you're talking about since circlejerk is a word exclusively assosciated with whatever it is.

Oh, thank god. For a second there I thought you might have been a regular at the other forum I go to :P

[exetra]

Yeah I thought so too but apparently our internet lives do not collide at any other points. Gee whiz.

[hollywood_maggot]

...I don't understand how you can think 'circlejerk' is something associated with one particular forum. O.o

[exetra]

See? Even metalfags can't agree with each other.

[jetfuel495]

...I don't understand how you can think 'circlejerk' is something associated with one particular forum. O.o

Haha I guess it's an inside joke, really. This one user made a thread about how he and his friends were watching The Prestige but then they got bored so they started watching porn. Pretty soon they were all fapping and "Mike almost caught some in the back of the head." He was asking us whether he should "feel dirty" or not.

We flamed him for 80-something pages until the mods finally got bored of laughing at him. We never let him live it down.

[Laurence]

Haha I guess it's an inside joke, really. This one user made a thread about how he and his friends were watching The Prestige but then they got bored so they started watching porn. Pretty soon they were all fapping and "Mike almost caught some in the back of the head." He was asking us whether he should "feel dirty" or not.

We flamed him for 80-something pages until the mods finally got bored of laughing at him. We never let him live it down.

Oh you guys :hmm:

[jetfuel495]

:P

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