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BilkEmDanno
02-12-2008, 4:11 PM
(Grade this as hard as you want. There are only a couple rules to this thread:
1. Read all of it. It's really short. If you want to respond, you HAVE to have read all of it. If you haven't read all of it, it will be considered spam.
2. Post ONLY with respective and constructive criticism. If it's good, feel free to say so, but there is always room to improve. ANY claim you make MUST be supported or it will be considered spam.
3. Once again- ALL CLAIMS MUST BE SUPPORTED or else it is spam.

Now, what is this? I am writing a novel. I mean, a real novel. Since I do plan on selling this, I am only giving you guys a little bit of it. The first few pages or so. I don't want to ruin too much since even giving the synopsis of the story can spoil quite a few things. This book is all about surprises. Basically, a secretive organization in NY. The short prelude into the story sums up the event that led to the starting of the group, then the story will rewind and go into the events that happened even before that event. Then, the story continues as normal. And yes, the story takes a wicked twist at the end.

As I said, this is only a little chunk of the very first manuscript, so there might be A LOT of mistakes. I spent quite a few hours late into the night typing out my hand-written draft, so if you see stupid errors, please point them out. Thanks.

In New York City, there is no scarcity of money. Money is as abundant as the amount of effort you are willing to put out to get to it. Some spend all their early years getting an education so they can grow up to be a lawyer, surgeon, or something else. Others are content with being in a position of poverty, to them they’re fine with selling newspapers out a booth or scrubbing the floors at Michaelangelo’s Bistro and Café. To them, every job is an oppurtunity to make fifteen cents more then what they’re used to. Then, there are eople who look for an easy fix. They fucked up big at one point in their life and they’re left with nothing. They are the kind of people you can’t trust- the kind of people who leech off society and everything it stands for.

They’re the right kind.

Michaelangelo’s Bistro and Café is what you call an interesting place. It used to be a French Bistro until a guy from Brooklyn came over and bought it out. It immediately lost almost all its history. It abruptly went from being a French restaurant to being an Italian Diner. He changed the color-scheme, put in some extra walls, revamped the floor plan. He did everything but change the name. He said, to change the name he needed to submit a complicated form to change his business name. He decided he’d rather keep it and keep the little popularity it had.

The café itself was located on a quiet street that ran perpindicular to the Sheepshead Bay Canal, just about two miles away from the water.. The outside left much to be desired. There was only one window in, and it was a plain rectangular wood window. It was between a Pizzeria and a realtor’s office, and by building rules it remained unpainted, leaving just a faded red brick that was chipping away in more places then one. A sign was hung on the other side of the building away from the window that said the name of the business in dark orange. Noodles and a snifter were painted half-heartedly around the lettering. The door was barely welcoming. The wood was a much lighter color then the frame of the window. It was a simple oak door with a dark brown handle. There was no window peering into the restaurant.

However, once you took a step inside, many things changed. You are invited to a cramped hallway. The walls are painted dark green, wall paper tapering up at the corners of where the walls meet. Brass handling was inlaid into the walls at both sides of the wall, in desperate need of a polishing. The flooring was from red hardwood, which was covered in burgandy carpeting in the dining area. A podium stood erect, obscuring the right side of the hallway and ultimately ushering your step to slow as you push past it. The dining area was a collection of some six odd booths, each surrounded by a half-wall with redwood accents and a brass frame holding a frosted glass in place, around all the booth. There were a few tables with their share of three or four chairs. Each table had a small fist-sized vase with a small rose and tealight candle.

Only one of the booths was occupied at this time, a lamp hanging off the ceiling to illuminate their table. A couple bowls of unfinished pasta were scattered across the table, baguettes torn and ripped hanging from the bowls or next to them on the tablecloth. The tablecloth was an olive color, stained with balsamic vinegar and Cabernet. Three gentlemen sat together, one at the head of the table, facing out into the rest of the Bistro, and two at each side of him. The man at the head of the table screamed power, he wore a dark navy jacket over a golden dress shirt with a red tie. Blue-pinstriped-black slacks were locked in place by a leather belt and a silver buckle. His right elbow was planted firm on the table and a cigar was lolling out from his limp fist. His sleeve slid down a bit to reveal to reveal a gold watch, a link too small on his wrist. His face was fat and round, unshaved and giving him a dark cloud of hairs around his jawline and over his upper lip. His nose bended and curved in deformed ways and his eyes were bloodshot and covered by drooping eyelids. His gaze was fixed at a painting on the opposite side of the bistro. The two men around him were dressed casually, each in blue jeans and some variation of a polo shirt. But one thing was pretty uniform- every member of the table had a gold watch and some sort of fine chain around their neck.

It was fairly unexpected when two guys came storming in from behind the podium, beige trenchcoats covering their clothing, black leather gloves covering their hands, and soft loafers. Both of their faces held no expression, as they approached the table that the three men were at. Their hands were in their pockets, and they pulled them out at the same time. Both the men were holding compact pistols. They approached the table with their pistols aimed.

“Gustavo’s regards.” One of them speaks, there was no more dialogue. Wasting no time, both men began firing into the three. The one at the head of the table shouted out and ducked down on the cushion, throwing his weight into the table and pushing it over. Food and drink splattered at the feet of the killers as they continued their firing. The man’s dining partners were now laying back, their shirt and bodies torn with bullets and their necks hitched over their shoulders. Blood dribbled from their lips, each one of them perfectly sporting a gunshot wound at their temple.

The portly man hid behind the table, fumbling in his jacket for his own gun. One of the killers grabbed the table and pulled it back, the other setting his gun against the temple of the cowering man.

“Give it a rest, Anton. We all lose somethin’.” The man with the gun spoke, and pulled the trigger. A loud retort sounded and blood sprayed from the round man’s skull, his jaw ripped open by the force. Another gunshot pierced his chest, throwing his body back into the chair he was trying to hide against. Another gunshot. His arm fell at his side holding a small snub-nosed revolver. Another gunshot. The two men then dropped their guns in unison, turned, and walked out.

And that’s how it began in New York. It started in Brooklyn, then spread to an unstoppable volume throughout the state. It was only a matter of time...

End Prelude Pt. 1 put Prelude Pt. 2.

Tweek
02-12-2008, 4:53 PM
The whole thing is too descriptive for me.

It gets boring and redundant hearing about what colour the door of some building is.

Audioslave
02-12-2008, 5:55 PM
PARAGRAPHS.

I learned a long time ago that nobody in their right mind (and those that aren't, ie the people on explosm) will read your writing unless it's broken up in some way. The way you have it, you technically started a new paragraph, but not really. Besides, 4 paragraphs for something that lengths is not enough, especially if there are 3 small ones and one massive one.

And don't be so damn demanding to the people who will (hopefully) review your work. Stop telling them what to do, because it's a massive turn-off. You're going to get some good and bad reviews (in terms of what they thought of it and how the review is written) and you're going to have to accept that, don't try to force them to conform to this idea you have of what you want people to say about your piece.

Also, don't say things like "There are A LOT of mistakes." because right there is another turn-off for a would-be reviewer. People do not want to correct the mistakes that you could do with a simple in-depth review.

Now that I'm done correcting your introduction to your writing, I'll tell you this; you remind me a lot of me. Back when I was trying to get started as a writer, I basically sounded like you. Through time and criticisms (some a little more blunt than others), I managed to become a better writer.

With all that being said; I'll read it later, once you split it up, make some corrections and I'm in the mood to do so.

BilkEmDanno
02-12-2008, 6:08 PM
There are paragraphs. I'm not fucking stupid. Explosm just doesn't show them.

And, I will be demanding because I posted it for help. I don't want blatantly pointless comments like: "o lulz its boring".

Every writer makes mistakes. Of course there are a lot of mistakes. Especially for my first manuscript.

Sorry if I sound rude. I will divide it up. Sorry it isn't displaying on your internets.

There, I divided it up. It's a faux pas to have a line after every paragraph, but forums don't support TABS. So, yeah.

Audioslave
02-12-2008, 6:23 PM
There are paragraphs. I'm not fucking stupid. Explosm just doesn't show them.

And, I will be demanding because I posted it for help. I don't want blatantly pointless comments like: "o [NOTE: I AM A RETARD] its boring".

Every writer makes mistakes. Of course there are a lot of mistakes. Especially for my first manuscript.

Sorry if I sound rude. I will divide it up. Sorry it isn't displaying on your internets.

There, I divided it up. It's a faux pas to have a line after every paragraph, but forums don't support TABS. So, yeah.

Yeah I know it's a bitch, but it's hard enough reading anything on the internet, let alone something that looks like 50-some-odd-lines long without so much as a space inbetween.

And yeah, we all make mistakes, but you should try to correct as many as possible. You're better off not rushing into showing it to the world, but waiting a week or so, going back to it every few days to tweak it until you're satisfied.

Quadros
02-12-2008, 6:27 PM
There's so much description, yet so little heart. You feel like you're looking on the place from outside the world. The description is detailed and accurate, but not eloquent or powerful. You got the description of the main victim fairly right, but the rest of the description lacked feeling and all in all the reader drowns in the level of detail and is still distant from the surface of the moment when the actions starts. You're swamping the dynamics in detail, I would suggest dropping at least half of it and deservedly refocusing the focal point to the actual events.

And don't post stuff with acknowledged gramatical and temporal errors, it felt like I was critiquing cottage cheese.

abbey
02-12-2008, 6:44 PM
It's also a faux pas to use tabs to indent. They're too big. Usually 5 spaces works better.

Paragraph 1:
"Then, there are eople who look for an easy fix."

Paragraph 2:
Boooring. You could have just wrote "He renovated the place." and you've accomplished the same thing.

Paragraph 3:
You don't need to describe the window frame if it's plain.
"...chipping away in more places then one."
Who cares what colour the writing on the sign is or the colour of the door.
"There was no window peering into the restaurant." What? You just described a window at the beginning of the paragraph.

Paragraph 5:
Don't talk about the baguettes.
Limp fist is kind of an oxymoron. When I picture a fist, I see it clenched. Maybe hand would be a better word.

Paragraph 6:
"It was fairly unexpected" Are you saying that the men were expecting it just a bit?
"Both of their faces held no expression, as they approached the table that the three men were at." Awkward sentence. Fix that up.
Lots of monotony here. You took three sentences just to say that they pulled out their guns and pointed them at the men.

Paragraph 7:
Usually booth tables are bolted down. He wouldn't be able to knock it over just from ducking under it.
Their bodies were torn with bullets and they had bullet holes exactly on their temples? I'd say choose one. Otherwise they would have had to shoot them in the temple and then shoot their torsos for no reason, or shoot up their torsos and then get the temple shot perfectly. It just doesn't work.

Paragraph 9:
"We all lose somethin'." I think "some time" would work better.
I don't think "retort" is the right word for the sound of a gun shot.

All in all:
Describing every detail of the setting is pointless unless a character is going to interact with it. You're taking away from the action by describing everyone's outfits and the history of the restaurant they just happen to be in. It's irrelevant.

Also don't post things you haven't edited yet.

On a separate note: Liberatum sounds better than Libertatum. When I think Libertatum, I think tater tots. Not a good association there.

BilkEmDanno
02-12-2008, 7:05 PM
Abbey, thank you for actually taking the time on that. I appreciate it. However, to all the people saying "FIAX IT B4 U PAOSITWT IT AOAJGNGMHG" this is a Manuscript. I am sharing this with you.

The beginning is almost supposed to be ironic. And yes, I know what ironic means. The reason? I wanted to narrate it like a classic mob film (though this isn't all about the mafia), where you get a guy to talk about it. You wouldn't expect a mafiosi to be intelligent, then you get a complete description of the scene. But after posting this, I thought about it a bit more- this is a serious book, no need to "joke".

As for tables being bolted down- don't go into stereotypes. How many restaurants have you professionally picked apart? I know many restaurants where the tables can be flipped over, especially a cheap Italian bistro in Brooklyn.

As for the grammatical error in the speech, I like your suggestion and I like the way it is equally. They're uneducated gangsters. What do you expect?

And yes, it's Liberatum. I fucked up there.

I will tone down the detail. The restaurant plays a big part later, so I needed to describe it. I should have specified. Remember, this is 3 pages out of like 300.

EDIT: And, every mafiosi expects getting killed all the time. It's part of the territory. So yes, it was a bit unexpected.

Audioslave
02-12-2008, 7:35 PM
In New York City, there is no scarcity of money. Money is as abundant as the amount of effort you are willing to put out to get to it. Some spend all their early years getting an education so they can grow up to be a lawyer, surgeon, or something else. Others are content with being in a position of poverty, to them they’re fine with selling newspapers out a booth or scrubbing the floors at Michaelangelo’s Bistro and Café. To them, every job is an opportunity to make fifteen cents more then what they’re used to. Then, there are people who look for an easy fix. They fucked up big at one point in their life and they’re left with nothing. They are the kind of people you can’t trust- the kind of people who leech off society and everything it stands for.

They’re the right kind.

Michaelangelo’s Bistro and Café is what you call an interesting place. It used to be a French Bistro until a guy from Brooklyn came over and bought it out. It immediately lost almost all its history. It abruptly went from being a French restaurant to being an Italian Diner. He changed the color-scheme, put in some extra walls, revamped the floor plan. He did everything but change the name. He said, to change the name he needed to submit a complicated form to change his business' name. He decided he’d rather keep it and keep the little popularity it had. [Don't use 'keep' twice so close together.]

The café itself was located on a quiet street that ran perpendicular to the Sheepshead Bay Canal, just about two miles away from the water.. The outside left much to be desired. There was only one window in, and it was a plain rectangular wood window. It was between a Pizzeria and a realtor’s office, and by building rules it remained unpainted, leaving just a faded red brick that was chipping away in more places then one. A sign was hung on the other side of the building away from the window that said the name of the business in dark orange. [You gave the building's color, no need to paint every object in the scene.] Noodles and a snifter were painted half-heartedly around the lettering. The door was barely welcoming. The wood was a much lighter color then the frame of the window. It was a simple oak door with a dark brown handle. There was no window peering into the restaurant.

However, once you took a step inside, many things changed. [Do not rely on the word 'you' so much, there are better ways to phrase things] You are invited to a cramped hallway. The walls are painted dark green, wall paper tapering up at the corners of where the walls meet. Brass handling was inlaid into the walls at both sides of the wall, in desperate need of a polishing. The flooring was from red hardwood, which was covered in burgundy carpeting in the dining area. A podium stood erect, obscuring the right side of the hallway and ultimately ushering your step to slow as you push past it. The dining area was a collection of some six odd booths, each surrounded by a half-wall with redwood accents and a brass frame holding a frosted glass in place, around all the booth. There were a few tables with their share of three or four chairs. Each table had a small fist-sized vase with a small rose and tealight candle. [This level of description is unnecessary, I don't care how many booths or chairs there are; it doesn't change my mental picture.]

Only one of the booths was occupied at this time, a lamp hanging off the ceiling to illuminate their table. [Where did 'their' come from? You haven't mentioned specifically mentioned any people yet. 'The' table would work fine.] A couple bowls of unfinished pasta were scattered across the table, baguettes [Baguettes and pasta? I thought it was an Italian restaurant now?] torn and ripped hanging from the bowls or next to them on the tablecloth. The tablecloth was an olive color, stained with balsamic vinegar and Cabernet. Three gentlemen sat together, one at the head of the table, facing out into the rest of the Bistro, and two at each side of him. The man at the head of the table screamed power, he wore a dark navy jacket over a golden dress shirt with a red tie. Blue-pinstriped-black slacks were locked in place by a leather belt and a silver buckle. His right elbow was planted firm on the table and a cigar was lolling out from his limp fist. His sleeve slid down a bit to reveal to reveal a gold watch, a link too small on his wrist. His face was fat and round, unshaved and giving him a dark cloud of hairs around his jawline and over his upper lip. His nose bended and curved in deformed ways and his eyes were bloodshot and covered by drooping eyelids. [This description is very good. Highlight of the story.] His gaze was fixed at a painting on the opposite side of the bistro. The two men around him were dressed casually, each in blue jeans and some variation of a polo shirt. But one thing was pretty uniform- every member of the table had a gold watch and some sort of fine chain around their neck.

It was fairly unexpected when two guys came storming in from behind the podium, beige trenchcoats covering their clothing, black leather gloves covering their hands, and soft loafers. Both of their faces held no expression, as they approached the table that the three men were at. Their hands were in their pockets, and they pulled them out at the same time. Both the men were holding compact pistols. They approached the table with their pistols aimed.

“Gustavo’s regards.” One of them speaks, there was no more dialogue. [Terrible sentence. The verb tense changes and the entire sentence is incomplete] Wasting no time, both men began firing into the three. ['Into' is not the right word here.] The one at the head of the table shouted out and ducked down on the cushion, throwing his weight into the table and pushing it over. Food and drink splattered at the feet of the killers as they continued their firing. The man’s dining partners were now laying back, their shirt and bodies torn with bullets and their necks hitched over their shoulders. Blood dribbled from their lips, each one of them perfectly sporting a gunshot wound at their temple. [Confusing paragraph]

The portly man hid behind the table, fumbling in his jacket for his own gun. One of the killers grabbed the table and pulled it back, the other setting his gun against the temple of the cowering man.

“Give it a rest, Anton. We all lose somethin’.” The man with the gun spoke, and pulled the trigger. A loud retort sounded and blood sprayed from the round man’s skull, his jaw ripped open by the force. Another gunshot pierced his chest, throwing his body back into the chair he was trying to hide against. Another gunshot. His arm fell at his side holding a small snub-nosed revolver. Another gunshot. The two men then dropped their guns in unison, turned, and walked out.

And that’s how it began in New York. It started in Brooklyn, then spread to an unstoppable volume throughout the state. It was only a matter of time...

There was a few glaring spelling/grammar mistakes. The spelling ones I fixed myself, and any MS Word spellcheck could fix them for you, the grammar ones I just put a note besides, not wanting to change your story in anyway.

I won't say it's great, or even good. It's not bad, especially considering you seem to be starting out. (?) If I went out and bought this, I wouldn't get past the first page. However, this is a first draft and it will no doubt improve.

Yet there are some fundamental problems you have as a writer that nobody on this forum can help you with. You need more work on your general description and use of words. Don't get me wrong, you have some great description at times, although you need to learn how to make your picture more complete. For parts, you describe the scene quite well, but as Quadros said; there's no soul. Nothing in your story feels alive, or relatable. You need to give your characters and scenes depth. I'd much rather know what the victims/killers are feeling, rather than what color the doorknob is.

The only way to improve your writing would be to go out and read (not to say that you do not do so already.) Inspiration can only take you so far, at some point you need something to derive your skill from. Writing is not 100% natural. Anybody could become a writer if they studied enough.

So yadda yadda yadda, I hope that didn't sound too condescending, I'm just trying to give you feedback on a basic level.

Godly
02-12-2008, 7:41 PM
As for the grammatical error in the speech, I like your suggestion and I like the way it is equally. They're uneducated gangsters. What do you expect?

Mobsters usually talk with an accent, not with a speech retardation.

As for the story; in a whole, it was ok, but then again that apparently doesn't mean anything to you, so. I found that I could read it without losing attention, but I very highly doubt I'd want to read something written like that for 300 pages. Why? Well first off, it's very detailed and details are good in some circumstances only. When you try to "beef up" your story with in-depth descriptions about every single visible thing you lose what you were actually saying. You lose the message you're trying to convey, and even if it's necessary(as you said, the bistro will have more importance later on) you should try to make it less of a chunk of description. If you want the reader to get the idea, then give them the idea, not a whole essay about it. Maybe start off with some details that tell you some general information about the bistro and as the story goes on, add some more every so often. It will keep the attention on the bistro, but it won't deter your readers away from it due to too much detailing.

On the same note as details, sometimes it's good to give a characters profile by telling us his clothing, style, looks and all those good things, but stay away from uselessness. For example: It was fairly unexpected when two guys came storming in from behind the podium, beige trenchcoats covering their clothing, black leather gloves covering their hands, and soft loafers.
Well I'll be, I've always wanted to know if the mobsters wore soft loafers! Oh wait, no I haven't!
That would be what we call useless information, stay away from it. It distracts the readers and gives nothing to them in terms of interest or character development.

You are also a little bit redundant at times, which is once again due to too much detailing and explanation. I'll give you an example: Both of their faces held no expression, as they approached the table that the three men were at. Their hands were in their pockets, and they pulled them out at the same time. Both the men were holding compact pistols. They approached the table with their pistols aimed.
You don't need to say that they are approaching the table again, we get that that's where they are headed, so leave out a line and leave us happier.

So pretty much, work on your general style of writing, stay away from overuse of detail and redundancy and keep getting better, cause that's all we really can do.

Well, well, how was that review then? Have I pleased you this time, or will it be "considered spam"? Shall you be appeased this time, cause I sure as hell don't want to get you all flustered again. :)

BilkEmDanno
02-12-2008, 7:53 PM
I told you, not the whole book will be descriptive like this.

And I take insult to saying I'm beginning at writing. This is just a manuscript.

And, thanks for the help Godly. Accounted. But not all mobsters speak with accents, don't go off stereotyping just because you've seen Godfather.

Audioslave
02-12-2008, 7:57 PM
Oh shut up. You come on here asking for criticism, then get all defensive about what people say. We're doing you a favor, get over yourself.

First off; you're not going to write a book. I've heard/said that many times, and it never comes to pass. Maybe 20 pages get finished, then it's left to collect dust. Start small, then work your way up.

Second; stop saying it's a manuscript. You ask for people to give feedback, and when they do you simply say "This is just a manuscript." As if you intended it to be bad.

Last; how long have you been writing? And I don't mean when was the first time you write a creative writing assignment in Grade 5, I mean when did you start seriously writing.

Quadros
02-12-2008, 7:58 PM
You're rediculously defensive for someone who asked for his work to be crtiqued. And you keep saying it's a manuscript but heavily eronious work makes for difficult constructive critisism. Please, Go back through it, correct the mistakes, THEN post it so that we can read what you actually WANT to be evaluated. Because helpful we are, but spell checkers we are not.

BilkEmDanno
02-14-2008, 9:41 AM
About six or so years ago. In any case, this is already a fully completed manuscript, as in, I have the full length down. It's fairly choppy and I need to put in some more parts and probably send it to some one to check what I have. As in, a professional, not a bunch of random guys on a forum, though I did want to get that opinion too.

As for correcting the mistakes, I have been. This thread has been very helpful so far. Don't make it sound like I'm not thankful for the good posts.

Audioslave
02-14-2008, 1:16 PM
About six or so years ago. In any case, this is already a fully completed manuscript, as in, I have the full length down. It's fairly choppy and I need to put in some more parts and probably send it to some one to check what I have. As in, a professional, not a bunch of random guys on a forum, though I did want to get that opinion too.

What? Do not take this the wrong way, but at this point, random guys on forums are the only people that will review your stuff. No professional will check what you posted here unless you pay them.

Also, it'd be nice if you returned the favor and read some of the things that other people that review your work wrote. I think every poster in this thread has some sort of writing on the forum...

EDIT: Scratch that. It's really only me and Quadros who have stuff posted. I think Abbey and Godly used to before the reset.

BilkEmDanno
02-14-2008, 8:34 PM
I will gladly return the favor.

And I know this isn't a professional place. I was getting, first, an unprofessional opinion and then I will send this in after I make my amateur changes.

Veeduck
02-15-2008, 1:33 PM
Now, I'm an essay writer. I don't write fiction, but that doesn't mean I can't critique it. In general, your style is very heavy handed. It's awkward, and the expressions are rather odd, in most places. I was bored to death trying to get through this, but I'm going to post a nice detailed run through of my thoughts as I was reading. This will probably be one monster of a post - you better read it, and acknowledge it, because you were so adamant about someone reading all the way through. My demand in return is a response.

In New York City, there is no scarcity of money.

This is a very weak way to begin your writing. For one, the expression is awkward. Second, it doesn't set any sort of tone. You have this bland statement that makes me go, "Okay, so what?" and that's not what you want to start a book with. In fact, you can take it out entirely, and you'd have a much better beginning, that reads almost philosophically.

Money is as abundant as the amount of effort you are willing to put out to get to it. Some spend all their early years getting an education so they can grow up to be a lawyer, surgeon, or something else.

You're being redundant here. "Money is not scarce. It is abundant." Okay, so what? Also, the vagueness of "lawyer, surgeon or something else" really turns me off your story. It's not concise, and it's a sloppy way of writing. I changed my mind: I don't like how you've opened with a discourse on money and random people getting it. I don't care about these random people, and I don't care about how they get money.

Others are content with being in a position of poverty, to them they’re fine with selling newspapers out a booth or scrubbing the floors at Michaelangelo’s Bistro and Café. To them, every job is an oppurtunity to make fifteen cents more then what they’re used to. Then, there are eople who look for an easy fix.

Spelling! Spelling! Jeez, all it takes is one one through MS word, and you get rid of this huge spelling errors. And it's really only a decent thing to do before asking for a review. Right now, it seems to me as if you crapped this "manuscript" out and shoved it in this forum's face without giving a damn about how much it stinks.

Seriously, before you ask for a review, at least correct the typos.

Also, the painter's name, and the traditional Italian name is "Michelangelo". There is no A, and the continuity bugs the hell out of me.

They fucked up big at one point in their life and they’re left with nothing. They are the kind of people you can’t trust- the kind of people who leech off society and everything it stands for.

The first sentence is horrible. You have mixed up different tenses in the same sentence, you're using an adjective as an adverb. It's terrible. Just read it. Read it out loud, and then tell others to read it. And then fix it. The second bores me. Why do I care about the different types of people in New York? What bearing does it have on the story? You're not setting any kind of mood - it's a grocery list opening. I don't like reading my own grocery list; why would I want to read yours?

They’re the right kind.

The kind you can't trust? Uh, no, they're not. This is ambiguous and dumb. The right kind for what? Who are the "right kind". I think you need to scrap/heavily rework your entire opening. It lacks any sense of style, and your "punchy" final line lacks any punch whatsoever. In fact, get rid of all this entirely. It doesn't set the stage for a good read.

Michaelangelo’s Bistro and Café is what you call an interesting place.

How do you know what I'd call it? Again - Michelangelo. Don't tell me what I'd call the bistro, tell me what YOU call it.

It used to be a French Bistro until a guy from Brooklyn came over and bought it out. It immediately lost almost all its history. It abruptly went from being a French restaurant to being an Italian Diner. He changed the color-scheme, put in some extra walls, revamped the floor plan. He did everything but change the name.

What the hell? Why would you call a French Bistro by an Italian name? There is no sense of continuity here. Also, way too many details. I don't care about extra walls or a revamped floor plan. Last I checked, I wasn't reading a home improvement how-to. Also, take a look at your phrasing. Do you see any flow there? There is no parallelism, no rhetoric whatsoever. This is why your writing comes off as heavy-handed, and why your writing seems so 'beginner', as some people have put it. Look into CONSCIOUSLY making use of literary devices.

He said, to change the name he needed to submit a complicated form to change his business name. He decided he’d rather keep it and keep the little popularity it had.

Comma splice. Also I don't care why he didn't change the name. It's unnecessary detail. You're not Charles Dickens. You're not being paid by the word, so cut out the stuff that you don't need. It will help smooth out your work and streamline it. This seems to be your major problem: too much detail. It bogs everything down.

The café itself was located on a quiet street that ran perpindicular to the Sheepshead Bay Canal, just about two miles away from the water..

a) don't care - too much detail. I'm going to stop quoting extra detail, because so many othe people have written about it.
b) extra periods are probably the most annoying punctuation mistake. Ellipses are used so incorrectly most of the time now, it's ridiculous. I don't know if you meant to use an ellipsis or a period here. So clean up your punctuation before submitting to review. People don't mind picking up a stray error here and there, but when your work is rife with it, it's pretty much saying, "I don't care about this work, so you don't have to, either."
c) Spelling!

It was between a Pizzeria and a realtor’s office, and by building rules it remained unpainted, leaving just a faded red brick that was chipping away in more places then one.

Here's a rule for you:

THAN VS THEN

Than is not related to time. It is used in comparative statements. Such as "In more places than one."

Then, however, is a temporal word. It marks time, or is used to delineate a sequence.

"Back then, everything was awesome."
"I went to school, then took a nap."

I didn't comment on it earlier, because I thought it might be a typo, or a silly mistake. But now I realize you just don't know the rule, because you keep making the mistake.

Here's a tip: before you start writing, invest in a book about grammar, then read it.

A sign was hung on the other side of the building away from the window that said the name of the business in dark orange.

This is possibly the most awkward way to say "The name of the business was painted in dark orange on a sign hung on the wall." Don't be verbose! CONCISE. Concise is key! You're dragging down your writing in trying to sound flowery or something. I don't know. It comes off as ridiculously amateur, however. My version is probably the most basic. I'm sure a better fiction writer could come up with something better sounding.

However, once you took a step inside, many things changed. You are invited to a cramped hallway.

This point of view never works. Don't pull your readers into the story unless you tend to keep them there. Using "you" is to be avoided in a third person narrative. Or at least that's what I've been told. I'm sure there are better ways to put this.

The walls are painted dark green, wall paper tapering up at the corners of where the walls meet. Brass handling was inlaid into the walls at both sides of the wall, in desperate need of a polishing. The flooring was from red hardwood, which was covered in burgandy carpeting in the dining area. A podium stood erect, obscuring the right side of the hallway and ultimately ushering your step to slow as you push past it. The dining area was a collection of some six odd booths, each surrounded by a half-wall with redwood accents and a brass frame holding a frosted glass in place, around all the booth. There were a few tables with their share of three or four chairs. Each table had a small fist-sized vase with a small rose and tealight candle.

DON'T SWITCH TENSES WITHIN A PARAGRAPH. You go from "The hallway is" to "the flooring was." It's really bad. Use one or the other. This is a huge problem you seem to have.

Only one of the booths was occupied at this time, a lamp hanging off the ceiling to illuminate their table. A couple bowls of unfinished pasta were scattered across the table, baguettes torn and ripped hanging from the bowls or next to them on the tablecloth. The tablecloth was an olive color, stained with balsamic vinegar and Cabernet.

Don't care.

Three gentlemen sat together, one at the head of the table, facing out into the rest of the Bistro, and two at each side of him. The man at the head of the table screamed power, he wore a dark navy jacket over a golden dress shirt with a red tie.

The second sentence sucks. The man "screamed power"? What? All I picture is a guy sitting at a table yelling the word "power" over and over again. Personification doesn't work if the object is already human. There has to be a better way to describe this.

Also there is another bad comma placement here. A semi-colon may work, but starting another sentence would be better.

Blue-pinstriped-black slacks were locked in place by a leather belt and a silver buckle. His right elbow was planted firm on the table and a cigar was lolling out from his limp fist. His sleeve slid down a bit to reveal to reveal a gold watch, a link too small on his wrist. His face was fat and round, unshaved and giving him a dark cloud of hairs around his jawline and over his upper lip. His nose bended and curved in deformed ways and his eyes were bloodshot and covered by drooping eyelids. His gaze was fixed at a painting on the opposite side of the bistro.

Not bad, but you need to start sentences with an article. Furthermore, you need to vary your sentences. Almost all of them start with "his", and the one that doesn't, should. This is bad repetition. Changing the sentences around a bit will alleviate the problem you're having, where your syntax and word choice ruin the mood you're going for.

The two men around him were dressed casually, each in blue jeans and some variation of a polo shirt. But one thing was pretty uniform- every member of the table had a gold watch and some sort of fine chain around their neck.

Chain and watch = gang?

It was fairly unexpected when two guys came storming in from behind the podium, beige trenchcoats covering their clothing, black leather gloves covering their hands, and soft loafers.

"It was _____" is a weak way to start off a sentence like this. How about "Two guys came storming in unexpectedly"?

Also they covered their loafers with gloves? Why? The sentence is ambiguous.

Both of their faces held no expression, as they approached the table that the three men were at. Their hands were in their pockets, and they pulled them out at the same time. Both the men were holding compact pistols. They approached the table with their pistols aimed.

This paragraph stumbles over itself. There is too much detail and redundancy packed into it. You could easily cut it down to "Two expressionless men approached the table, and pulled compact pistols out of their pockets." Somehow, you managed to stretch that into four separate sentences.

“Gustavo’s regards.” One of them speaks, there was no more dialogue.

A) Tense problems
B) Quotation problems
C) Bad comma placement

I, again, urge you to learn some grammar. Saying, "This is a manuscript!" doesn't help. Being mindful of grammatical rules will ensure that you spend much less time editing, for one. For two, it's much less annoying to read something that follows the basic conventions of the English language. Such as not blending tenses in the same sentence or paragraph.

Wasting no time, both men began firing into the three. The one at the head of the table shouted out and ducked down on the cushion, throwing his weight into the table and pushing it over. Food and drink splattered at the feet of the killers as they continued their firing. The man’s dining partners were now laying back, their shirt and bodies torn with bullets and their necks hitched over their shoulders.

Necks hitched over their shoulders? What? That's a weird expression. Maybe I'm too Canadian to get it. Too much detail, not enough pathos.


Blood dribbled from their lips, each one of them perfectly sporting a gunshot wound at their temple.

How, if the men were firing indiscriminately, did each receive a perfect shot to the temple? Continuity problem.

“Give it a rest, Anton. We all lose somethin’.” The man with the gun spoke, and pulled the trigger. A loud retort sounded and blood sprayed from the round man’s skull, his jaw ripped open by the force.

What do we all lose? Or do you mean "sometime"? And I laughed out loud at the idea of a gun retorting. What witty remark did it make?

Another gunshot pierced his chest, throwing his body back into the chair he was trying to hide against. Another gunshot. His arm fell at his side holding a small snub-nosed revolver. Another gunshot. The two men then dropped their guns in unison, turned, and walked out.

The dude shot him in the temple. Why did they need to shoot him another three times? That's pretty dumb. Unless, you know, he was still walkin' around or something.

And that’s how it began in New York. It started in Brooklyn, then spread to an unstoppable volume throughout the state. It was only a matter of time...

Now I feel like I just sat through a grade 10 history presentation. It was awkward, kinda boring, with too many errors in grammar to read clearly.

Also I hate you for ending the piece with an ellipsis. It does not give you an atmosphere of mystery, or suspense. It means you omitted something. Find a better way to finish this, uh, prologue.

Over all, your temporal and grammatical issues seriously overshadow anything you're going for here. It might be a draft, but read through it! Catch those odd sentences and change them! Not only will you have happier reviewers, your story will be better for it.

You also have absolutely no pathos whatsoever. You present the characters as lifeless, essentially. You have one guy staring at a painting, and two guys doing nothing in particular. Why should I care if they die? I have no emotional attachment to them. They barely even seem human because they have no human-like qualities.

You need to get your audience emotionally involved in what you're trying to tell them, or else, no matter what, you're going to be writing a failure of a book.

Watch the redundancy and detail. And don't get defensive about the reviews: everyone is saying basically the same thing. That means you have serious problems with those particular things, and you need to fix them as soon as possible.

Edit: Sorry about the BBcode mistakes.

BilkEmDanno
02-15-2008, 7:19 PM
That was a fucking amazing post. It was very vicious and blunt, but that's what I wanted.

As for the beginning, it is a narration, kindofsortof. The story is almost in first person, but not in first person. The emotions my characters feel are typical. I admit it, I fucked up by posting this and not reading through it or posting anything else, and you guys are just critiquing what you have to critique. But, all the things that seem stupid will be made clear later.

As for them firing into the temples and then into the body, don't tell me that's stupid. It's more or less a sign of disrespect then anything, and you can't rely on just shooting a person once, even if it seems a perfect shot.

And, any verbal grammar errors are intentional.

And there are some things you pointed out I didn't notice even after reading through it, and for that I thank you. That's why writers hire people to read through their shit. There is SO MUCH you don't see when writing a book then reading what you wrote. There are some other things you pointed out where you were giving me useless advice, but I'd rather people give me tons of extra advice then no advice at all, so thanks.

Once again, thanks again.

Godly
02-15-2008, 7:53 PM
There are some other things you pointed out where you were giving me useless advice,

And that's where you're wrong. That's why you won't be able to make a good book. You can't see that what people are telling you is the truth and that you're the one who got it wrong.

Everything Veeduck said is completely true and it's pretty much what everyone else has been telling you since you posted your first writings. You shouldn't dismiss any criticism given to you, cause chances are that's what's going to help you get better. If you keep saying things like "The bad grammar in my dialog was intensional" then you'll never realize that even though you may think it's a good idea, everyone else doesn't. We notice these mistakes and we tell you, but you ignore them. Yes I get that you want some kind of character "style" when they speak, but how many times now has someone commented on that one line "We all lose somethin’."? Too many times for you to simply dismiss us and say that you want it like that.

Take the constructive criticism we give you, that you asked us for so adamantly, and APPLY IT. Honestly, we don't care if you make it as a writer or not, so we're not going to tell you a bunch of bullshit for the sake of leading you in the wrong direction. So how about you stop thinking you're the only intelligent writer on this forum, get off your high horse and for your sake, not ours, use the damn advice we give you.

abbey
02-16-2008, 12:10 PM
One more thing: Gustavo isn't Italian. It's the Spanish form of the name Gustave, which is of Scandinavian origin.

BilkEmDanno
02-19-2008, 1:17 PM
I have seen Italians named Gustavo before. Don't automatically assume he's an Italian, anyway. New York has a complicated crime circuit.

@Godly: I was saying that some of his advice was just factual errors that he thought were errors but were not/intentional. IE: Tables being bolted down.

Veeduck
02-20-2008, 8:50 PM
As for the beginning, it is a narration, kindofsortof. The story is almost in first person, but not in first person.

You didn't pull it off. I didn't get this sense at ALL.

The emotions my characters feel are typical.

Typical what?

I admit it, I fucked up by posting this and not reading through it or posting anything else, and you guys are just critiquing what you have to critique. But, all the things that seem stupid will be made clear later.

No, they will still seem stupid. You need to rope in your audience from the get go. And by giving them these things that seem stupid will turn them off your writing.

As for them firing into the temples and then into the body, don't tell me that's stupid.

But it is. It makes no sense. Why, after riddling a body full of holes, would you shoot them cleanly in the temple? It, first of all, disrupts the chaos of a gunfight, and second of all, your audience won't know what the symbolism of this act is.

It's more or less a sign of disrespect then anything, and you can't rely on just shooting a person once, even if it seems a perfect shot.

You want to keep an atmosphere consistent. No one will pick up that a temple shot means disrespect unless you explicitly tell them. Otherwise, it just makes it seem as if the mood if switching in your story - from chaotic gunfight to precision murder, and that makes no sense. The two styles of shooting are inconsistent.

And, any verbal grammar errors are intentional.

There's a difference between ambiguity and dialect. A dialect will be something along the lines of:

"There ain't nothing you can say to change my mind" <-- intentional double negatives. No grammar errors, just a spin on linguistics. You have a clear meaning, and you have a clear delivery, even if it is not "proper".

An ambiguous quote, "We all lose somethin’." Doesn't tell me anything. It's vague, it makes no sense and doesn't even give a hint at a dialect. It's just a bad sentence that means nothing to anyone.

There are some other things you pointed out where you were giving me useless advice, but I'd rather people give me tons of extra advice then no advice at all, so thanks.

None of the advice I gave was useless. Don't read your work form the perspective of the writer. Read it as the audience. The stuff being commented on is stuff that will confuse and irritate your readers. And that makes crappy writing.

Get over yourself and take the advice you're given. All this stuff your brushing off is pretty serious lapses in judgement, continuity or just a consequence of bad writing. Take it, internalize it and use it, and maybe people will enjoy your writing better.

I was saying that some of his advice was just factual errors that he thought were errors but were not/intentional. IE: Tables being bolted down.

"Factual" errors? Like what? Like Michelangelo not having an "a" in it? Or it being a stupid name for a French Bistro?

(Though technically the Italian name is Michelagnolo, according to Giorgio Vasari, but the anglicized, well-known version is "Michelangelo")

Also, I'm a she, and I didn't comment on the tables being bolted down. If you read through my review, like you so demanded people do about your story, you'd have realized that.

Audioslave
02-20-2008, 9:05 PM
Veerduck is right on every account.

Also; how old are you? Depending on the answer; your writing will either get exponentially better, or you'd better quit.