Austrian Man Locks Daughter In Cellar For 24 Years

[Mr. Crow]

Fucking horrific.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/29/austria.cellar/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Apparently, this guy started sexually molesting his daughter when she was eleven years old. Then she got pregnant, so he locked her up in the cellar and told his wife she had run away. He kept her in there for twenty-four years. During that time, she had seven children. One died, three he brought to his wife under the story that their daughter had left them on the doorstep with a note, and three stayed locked in the cellar with their mother, the daughter.

The three children in the cellar are 19, 18, and 5. That's the most horrific part of the story, to me. They spent their entire lives locked up in a tiny, dark cellar.

I'm pretty stunned. I know news threads are against the rules now, but this is pretty exceptional. Austria is considering this basically the worst crime of which they've ever heard.

[Jiggz]

I was waiting for someone to post this.

I'm waiting for the details to come out of this. The guys wife, her mother I assume, had no fucking idea he was keeping his daughter and three children locked in their cellar.

And by the looks of things on the news, it wasn't some rural backwoods type setting like you'd expect, it was upper middle class housing.

[spaj]

Yep, this story's been all over the internet (was waiting for someone else to make it though cause of the 'new regime').

I can't believe this is the second time it's happened (the whole locking up a girl in a cellar for an extended period of time thing).

It's absolutely horrible how no one could hear the screams in the cellar, too, apparently. It's still sinking into me. Every time I re-read an article about it it just reminds me of how many more inhumane things this guy did.

[Judge_Fudge]

24 years in a cellar? With no wi-fi?

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Reason: Shit post

[Tyler_Legrand]

He's an engineer and never heard of a condom? Or at least a pill?

[Merka2]

It's absolutely horrible how no one could hear the screams in the cellar, too, apparently.

Actually they he had it sound proofed. but this just sickens me how did you grow to do stuff like that

[DarknessEqualsMe]

I'm waiting for the details to come out of this. The guys wife, her mother I assume, had no fucking idea he was keeping his daughter and three children locked in their cellar.

I think I've read somewhere that his wife died a few months earlier or something.

[Tyler_Legrand]

A few months < 24 years

[DarknessEqualsMe]

I meant a few months before this actually happened.. Argh.. nevermind..

[Tyler_Legrand]

Well I doubt it. "Hiding a double life without wife knowing".

Where is this "somewhere" you read this from?

[DarknessEqualsMe]

Where is this "somewhere" you read this from?

Dutch newspaper... I'm not even sure.. I just thought I read it somewhere, and also: I said the wife died before it actually started. So like 24 years and some months now..

I will probably get a time-out for such stupid answers, don't I?

[CCCP_Guy]

The news article says he's going to get like 15 years. I seiously think he should go to prison for life for that crime. If possible even get tortured, even though that's probably illegal in most countries.

[Oofie]

The news article says he's going to get like 15 years. I seiously think he should go to prison for life for that crime.

He's 73, he will more than likely be dead in 15 years anyway.

[-josh-]

I wanna know why the grandmother was taking in three of those kids without any questions asked....that's just damn naive... This whole story is sick.

[CalculatePie314]

Where the hell did he get a 300kg steel door from?

[misc]

i know he had it soundproofed and everything, but I still find it hard to believe the wife had no clue? She must either be severely clueless or involved.

When some austrian police source was asked whether she was going to be investigated incase she knew about it, he just said 'let me ask you a counter-question: why would a good wife allow this to happen to her daughter if she knew about it?" what the fuck? Thats not an appropriate answer!

Oh, I read about this story in 'The Sun', which helpfully included a diagram of a house in order to show readers what a basement is and where it is located in relation to the ground. Classic journalism!

[Mr. Crow]

But, seriously, there are two children who have lived more than eighteen years, their entire childhood, their entire lives, imprisoned in a cellar. That's the worst part about this story. What's going to happen to them? They must be seriously fucked up.

This guy deserves more than fifteen fucking years. He deserves to be reamed with a porcupine every day for the rest of his life while weasels chew on his testes.

[HappyPalooza]

How'd he rape the daughter 6 years ago? The three of them couldn't overpower a 67 year old?

[Ace991]

Seeing as they had grown up in a cellar, they only had a small mindset about what life was, and to them, that was some old guy coming down into their world every once in a while.

[HappyPalooza]

I'm pretty sure the daughter would have the right idea to escape.

[Oofie]

Mindset is one thing, she'd been deprived of sunlight for 24 years. You can't expect her to be able to overpower anyone.

[Quadros]

This chick had better have been hot or he has a LOT of explaining to do.

Also

Austria is considering this basically the worst crime of which they've ever heard.

I'm pretty sure there was one sixty odd years ago which was a teensy bit worse.

[this is not a post]

Makes you wonder, did the daughter think it was wrong too? If he started when she was 11, she may well have been completely innocent about abuse and the like, so perhaps it's not been as stressful for her as a few people are making out?

Still an attrocity mind.

[Quadros]

Well he soundproofed the cellar to stop his wife hearing the screaming, so I'm going to go with 'no'.

[tunacake]

24 years in a cellar? With no wi-fi?

USER WAS PUT IN TIMEOUT FOR THIS POST. (http://forums.explosm.net/eventlog.php)
Reason: Shit post

Stop being so fucking disrespectful.

I was watching a story on this, about the kids. The news people didn't even care about the cellar kids. They were all upset because the surface kids were going to be traumatized by the event! Are you kidding me!? Sure they should get a little counseling or whatever, but the other kids lived their whole lives in a cell underground. They didn't give two shits about what happened to the kids in the cellar. That pissed me off so much.

Also,
Well he soundproofed the cellar to stop his wife hearing the screaming, so I'm going to go with 'no'.
I'm guessing there were screams in the beginning, but she would have grown (somewhat) used to it over the years. After that the soundproofing would be for 'just in case' sounds.

[BurgerKueen]

The article says the kids thought he was their grandfather. He must have scared her daughter and forced her to hide the truth from them. I mean she was locked up when she was 11, and was molested by him ever since she was conscious basically, so both she and the kids would have a mindset and view of life much different than us. And like someone said, they lived their whole lives without sunlight, they're probably pretty weak.

I think the weirdest thing is that his wife didn't know. And the neighbors believed his story too? He must have been very convincing with his stories and letters. I'd like to know what kind of a thing caused him to do such a thing. I have a hard time digesting the fact that children are being molested by their fathers, and now this man? Ugh.

It reminds me of Polanski's Chinatown with Jack Nicholson. But this is even worse.

[HappyPalooza]

If I were raped by my father when I was eleven I probably wouldn't have grown used to it over the years and, again, leaving would have dawned upon me. I mean come on, she was eleven, not six.

[TheHighwaySong]

Wow. The thing that shocks me is the two kids who are 18 and 19. Their entire lives locked in a cellar. Imagine their reactions when they finally see sunlight, a tree, or anything that isn't a wall and a door. Hardcore stuff. =\

[Hawke]

While I don't know the full situation, you'd think that once the daughter turned like 20ish or 30ish and the dad was getting older, then she would have an easier time escaping.

[this is not a post]

But again, maybe she didn't know she was meant to want to escape?

[Quadros]

You're talking like she's never seen The Great Escape. Besides, are you seriously implying that after some time she ENJOYED being raped by daddy?

[this is not a post]

I'm doing no such thing, just speculating whether she thought it was as horrific as it is, being so naive and young when it started.

How do you reckon the father justified keeping her down there, to her?
edit - last point is just another thing I've wondered, not a challenge or anything.

[I_Smell]

How is everyone saying that growing up, from birth, in a cellar is worse than being locked in their from the age of eleven to 35 and giving birth to seven children, keeping three; the only source of human contact, her grotesquely insane father?

I'm guessing (with my maths) she had the first one at 16.
She raised three children who have never seen daylight and were consistently raped since birth. Assuming they weren't raised on a balanced diet, I'm guessing they were pretty much alien looking. She raised these in one soundproof room for 19 years, whilst being raped by an old man. It's impossible to tell whether she didn't kill herself out of hope, or wether she had soon lost the mental ability to even come up with an idea like that.

"I believe it would be fitting to get a rope and hang him. Such a pig!"
Very immaginative, Gertrude.

EDIT- Two of the children were male.

EDIT-The retired electrical engineer looked calm and showed no emotion when he appeared in court Tuesday, according to an Austrian reporter present. Fritzl, who faces a possible 15 years in prison if charged and convicted of rape, said that he wanted to redeem himself, added Sabrine Arndt, of Pro7/Sat1 TV station.

[tunacake]

I'm trying to think of what was going through her mind. Would she have wanted to escape all that badly? Maybe she had grown to fear her father so much that she didn't dare try to escape, or maybe she had grown accustomed to the whole rape thing. I don't know.
Another possibility is that there were others involved.

[I_Smell]

You don't just grow accustomed to living in dark isolation with your morbid offspring for double the length of your life, you fucking supid dick.

[tunacake]

How is everyone saying that growing up, from birth, in a cellar is worse than being locked in their from the age of eleven to 35 and giving birth to seven children, keeping three; the only source of human contact, her grotesquely insane father?

I'm guessing (with my maths) she had the first one at 16.
She raised three children who have never seen daylight and were consistently raped since birth. Assuming they weren't raised on a balanced diet, I'm guessing they were pretty much alien looking. She raised these in one soundproof room for 19 years, whilst being raped by an old man. It's impossible to tell whether she didn't kill herself out of hope, or wether she had soon lost the mental ability to even come up with an idea like that.


Very immaginative, Gertrude.

Some good points there. Putting aside who had it worse, I think we can all agree that each of these victims have experienced a fate that no human being would ever deserve.
Was anyone else as shocked as I was when all of the news people were in agreement that the ones who needed the most attention were the children who lived upstairs?

[tunacake]

You don't just grow accustomed to living in dark isolation with your morbid offspring for double the length of your life, you fucking supid dick.

I think you can get accustomed to anything if you're constantly exposed to it for 24 years. I don't mean accustomed in the sense that she was content with it all, I meant that after a while she would have accepted the fact that she couldn't do anything to change her situation.
If she was locked up as an impressional little 11 year old, by the time she's 25 she's not still going to be banging her fists on the steel door all day screaming.

[HappyPalooza]

Well, she screamed quite a bit whenever she was being raped.

[BurgerKueen]

Didn't the wife ever wonder why they suddenly stopped using the cellar? Or why she was never allowed in there when the man spent so much time down there?

And apparently she did try to escape and did try to look for help when possible:
"According to Germany's Bild newspaper, Elisabeth succeeded in escaping from the cellar on December 24, 1994. Shortly thereafter, she was found by Josef and forced back into captivity."
"A note from her mother asking for help was found in Kerstin's pocket."

[John Travolta]

It's too bad the kids weren't in there without a guardian because that would have been really interesting to find out how they would have interacted with each other. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Genie yet.

[makemeshiny]

You don't get used to your dad raping you, even if it's been going on for 24 years. You just start to accept the fact that there's nothing you can do. She probably knew it was wrong, all kids who is raped know that it's wrong, but the shame and fear keep them from telling. Probably why she didn't do anything either. He probably got her completely under his control.

[BurgerKueen]

She DID try to escape according to BILD, but she was captured back by him. I mean she was behind a steel door, there's only so much she could do.

[tunacake]

Didn't the wife ever wonder why they suddenly stopped using the cellar? Or why she was never allowed in there when the man spent so much time down there?

And apparently she did try to escape and did try to look for help when possible:
"According to Germany's Bild newspaper, Elisabeth succeeded in escaping from the cellar on December 24, 1994. Shortly thereafter, she was found by Josef and forced back into captivity."
"A note from her mother asking for help was found in Kerstin's pocket."

I thought I read somewhere that it was a kind of hidden away cell thing. I could be wrong.

[HappyPalooza]

And apparently she did try to escape and did try to look for help when possible:
"According to Germany's Bild newspaper, Elisabeth succeeded in escaping from the cellar on December 24, 1994. Shortly thereafter, she was found by Josef and forced back into captivity."
"A note from her mother asking for help was found in Kerstin's pocket."

That's better. See?! No one just accepts the fact that they can't get out. It's an old man's basement, not a concentration camp. Seriously, she probably could've just pushed the old guy down and made a break for it. What I'd like to know is how she was "forced back into captivity." I seriously doubt there were friends of the father helping him rape and imprison his daughter.

[BurgerKueen]

Hypothetical situation: She knocks him down as he walks in the door, runs away, but the old man manages to get up and grab her just in time before anyone sees her and then gives her a good beating to scare her off for good.

I mean Natasha Kampusch's kidnapper took her to a ski resort and she still couldn't manage to escape so maybe it's not that far fetched that Elisabeth couldn't either. Austrian men sound really creepy now.

[MrDoctor]

This is really interesting in a way. I wonder how the kids would have acted together if there was no mother or grandfather there? I wonder if they would have learned how to communicate or if the kids would have been like animals?

[BurgerKueen]

Well kids who grow up in the forest with animals or whose parents refuse to talk to them (and they don't have anyone else to talk to) never fully develop speech, so probably not.

[HappyPalooza]

This is really interesting in a way. I wonder how the kids would have acted together if there was no mother or grandfather there? I wonder if they would have learned how to communicate or if the kids would have been like animals?

They probably would've just sat there until they died of starvation. It's not rocket science.

[Mr. Crow]

That's better. See?! No one just accepts the fact that they can't get out. It's an old man's basement, not a concentration camp. Seriously, she probably could've just pushed the old guy down and made a break for it. What I'd like to know is how she was "forced back into captivity." I seriously doubt there were friends of the father helping him rape and imprison his daughter.

People are speculating as to whether he had help, which is likely. It's not easy to pull something off like this. How the fuck do you build a steel, soundproof cellar under your home without anyone noticing?

[HappyPalooza]

But how do you find someone to help with this kind of thing? Even the most crooked steel soundproof cellar worker guy would have the sense to go to the cops about this.

[Dauntasa]

But how do you find someone to help with this kind of thing? Even the most crooked steel soundproof cellar worker guy would have the sense to go to the cops about this.

Maybe he got someone to build the door and then installed it himself. He could have just told the guy that he was building a vault to keep his money safe or something.

[katemonster]

This is like that book, Flowers in the Attic, except way sicker, and I didn't think that was possible. I actually think it's really brave of the mother that she survived in there for so long, because I'm sure a lot of people would try and commit suicide if they were in that situation. I guess maybe she wanted to look after her kids or something..

[I_Smell]

Well if one man sees it as a good idea, there's no reason why two men couldn't.

[BurgerKueen]

If the cellar is divided into two rooms, he could tie up the girl so she would keep quiet in the back room, and then just install a steel door with some made up excuse. He doesn't have to show the inside of the other room to whoever is building the door. The question I want answered, personally, is why didn't the wife question all of this suspicious stuff.

[Lag]

If the cellar is divided into two rooms, he could tie up the girl so she would keep quiet in the back room, and then just install a steel door with some made up excuse. He doesn't have to show the inside of the other room to whoever is building the door. The question I want answered, personally, is why didn't the wife question all of this suspicious stuff.

Maybe she's just plain stupid? It doesn't take much to deceive some people into ignoring suspicious details or plot holes.

[BurgerKueen]

Well I guess it is possible that she is. Maybe she was too devastated with her daughter's loss she didn't pay attention to anything. I'm still going to follow this and see if anything new and interesting turns up.

[TangerineOrange]

Has anyone read the BBC.com articles on the subject? While they provide the same general information, I find the tone to be very different than the one from CNN.com. It's just something I found to be very interesting.

But more importantly, how did his wife not know?! HOW?! How did she "buy" with no questions that her daughter, Elisabeth, just "left" her babies on the front stoop to be taken care of?! Why didn't she try and contact her? To me, I just cannot understand it. I realize that Josef F. was a controlling husband/father/rapist, but still... how does someone not realize or wonder about such things?

Also, I'm curious as to how well these children (specifically the ones in the basement) will adjust to the "real world", given that for 5-19 years respectively they've lived in a windowless basement. I think that the 5-yr-old, Felix, has a good shot at a "normal" life, but as for the others? I wonder how much irreversible damage has been done? Yes, I know it's probably a lot, but still... I wonder how much.

Another thing, it must have been a shock to his "grandchildren" that were living upstairs that their mother was quite literally just beneath them. I wonder how they're dealing with that. Also... how did his wife, Rosemarie, not see the old resemblance??

[tunacake]

Has anyone read the BBC.com articles on the subject? While they provide the same general information, I find the tone to be very different than the one from CNN.com. It's just something I found to be very interesting.

But more importantly, how did his wife not know?! HOW?! How did she "buy" with no questions that her daughter, Elisabeth, just "left" her babies on the front stoop to be taken care of?! Why didn't she try and contact her? To me, I just cannot understand it. I realize that Josef F. was a controlling husband/father/rapist, but still... how does someone not realize or wonder about such things?

Also, I'm curious as to how well these children (specifically the ones in the basement) will adjust to the "real world", given that for 5-19 years respectively they've lived in a windowless basement. I think that the 5-yr-old, Felix, has a good shot at a "normal" life, but as for the others? I wonder how much irreversible damage has been done? Yes, I know it's probably a lot, but still... I wonder how much.


I'm sure she didn't find babies on her step and say, "Oh, that's cool." There would have been some questioning, but the husband would have covered it up somehow. We don't know every detail, remember.

And those older basement kids are screwed.
I feel so badly for them, they've been robbed of their lives. And the mother too of course.
Thank God they found them before it was too late for the 5 year old.

[HappyPalooza]

I wonder if he also raped the other kids. It doesn't seem like it from the news stories, but I'm curious as to why he'd only stick with the one. Was she just hotter?

[BurgerKueen]

Well there were letters written by Elisabeth explaining she ran off to join a religious cult and couldn't take care of some of the kids. I wonder if the oldest one got into a coma because she's never seen sunlight. Apparently, her kidneys aren't functioning properly.

Actually, maybe it's not so crazy that the wife didn't suspect anything. She must have been 45-50 when Elisabeth disappeared. She had a total of seven kids. When Elisabeth disappeared she'd still have at least 2 or 3 young kids to take care of on top of the pain of one disappearing. Add to that 3 more kids with 2 year intervals. She probably didn't have time and energy left to even scratch her head. I can't imagine how she must have felt finding out her daughter was just a few steps away from her all this time.

Happy: When I listened to the press conference, it sounded like he only chose her. There was a picture of her as a kid, she was pretty. Poor girl. :frown:

[Masayous]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Genie yet.

Damn it. I was just thinking about relating her to this situation.

The daughter was 11 when she was raped for the first time and locked up. From a mental development point of view, she should have been fluent in verbal communication and had some sense of moral coherence. She was able to write a coherent note to the outside world, so it stands to reason that she possesses a reasonable intelligence level. It will be interesting to see how much of this she will have passed onto her children. Will they be able to communicate with authorities or will they be feral, such as Genie or Victor (the wild child of Aveyron)?

The case shares some similarities with that of the Linz sisters. These children, aged 7, 11 and 13 were kept imprisoned for a total of 7 years. Feralchildren.com states:

The girls are not now expected to ever recover from the ordeal of being confined away from natural light, in a home filled with excrement a metre high and no running water. The girls were severely malnourished and sensitive to light when released. They do not speak normally but have evolved a language of their own, based on German.

It's a fascinating, albeit morbid, subject of study. It suggests that humans are social animals that require to communicate with their environment and will develop language patterns to match.

Also, I'm curious as to how well these children (specifically the ones in the basement) will adjust to the "real world"

They wont. They have been conditioned to live in an underground chamber in which random acts of brutality are normal process. They have been indoctrinated into imprisonment, savagery and barbarity. They may or they may not be able to communicate with authorities, health care professionals or even each other. They will be sensitive to sunlight and anxious of any large open space. I severely doubt that any of these children will adapt to the real world and live a normal life.

[BurgerKueen]

Mr Kepplinger said the family members had interacted very naturally, although he said two of the children who had spent their lives underground had a way of communicating that was "anything but normal".

I don't think the 18 and 19 year old ones can lead a completely normal life simply because they've spent so long away from the real world and it's order. I would think that they can speak, because they had their mother and also a TV in the cellar.

[danil]

I'm really surprised by the fact that the wife believed that her 11 year old daughter joined a religious cult. This monster must be really convincing, or she knows.

[Ikin]

I'm really surprised by the fact that the wife believed that her 11 year old daughter joined a religious cult. This monster must be really convincing, or she knows.

She was first abused at age 11. She "ran away" at age 18.

[Caryla]

To whoever has said that the children must have flipped the first time they saw a tree, or the sun... They had TV downstairs, I read, so I'm sure they at least knew what they were, so at least they didn't freak out the first time they saw them, or when they saw a car.. Though I'm sure they were still surprised.

Honestly, the pictures I saw mostly looked like a really small, cramped, apartment in a cheap part of a big town. Not comfortable, certainly, but if one can ignore the "locked underground" part, at least it was livable.

[BurgerKueen]

I mean it was obviously livable since the girl survived for 24 years, and two children grew up to be 18 and 19. It would still be unhealthy to live all your life in unnatural life and know only about 3 people and observe the world from a TV. I think it's likely the elder girl got into a coma because of some deficiency or problem caused by lack of sunlight.

[Oofie]

To everyone going on about how the wife believed her daughter just ran away:
The truth is just as, if not more, incredible. Like, why wouldn't she believe her husband? Without any other explanation, his lie was probably just as believable as the next.

[Jiggz]

To everyone going on about how the wife believed her daughter just ran away:
The truth is just as, if not more, incredible. Like, why wouldn't she believe her husband? Without any other explanation, his lie was probably just as believable as the next.

I think he told his wife she left to join a cult of some sort. And that she apparently left the babies on their doorstep because she was unable to look after them herself. Well, that's the bullshit he fed his wife anyway.

What a very manipulative motherfucker. And those kids? They must be hugely disturbed. Possibly even beyond rehabilitation. Any news on what exactly put the eldest daughter in a coma?

[Xambesi]

What freaks me out is that this is the only person they're caught. There could me dozens of people locked in cellars... your NEIGHBOURS could have little girls hidden underground, and you'd have no idea.

[P0K3M0N_MA5T3R]

I really don't get this woman, after 24 years she didn't escape, she didn't think up some sort of plan to get out, or even kill the guy? She had a freaking mirror, would it have been that hard to have smashed it and stab the bastard? Most people can only take so much before they snap and after being raped 2 or 3 times, you'd have thought she'd have just gone mad and murdered him or something. I just don't understand why she didn't do anything.

[Whorelock]

The thing that I don't understand is when the Police were notified of the dissapearance of the daughter (If they were) wouldn't they think to have a look around the house? Maybe?

[Clerlic]

I'm interested in the brand of the TV that probably worked for 24 years straight, unless he bought them a new one, which again would make the wife suspicious.

[bertoltus]

I think it's likely the elder girl got into a coma because of some deficiency or problem caused by lack of sunlight.
I heard somewhere that her illness was incest-related.

[Johnny]

I'm not being disrespectful or anything but surely the bunch of them could've escaped easily. One of them could've waited by the door as the old man came in to give them a weeks food or whatever and then they pounce and beat the crap out of him.

EDIT: They had a fully functional kitchen as well so they could've got a pan or something.

[Bernardo]

what you guys are failing to understand is their notion of reality is completely different from ours. Why WOULD they want to escape? Are you trying to escape from your reality into some other reality? Maybe a fantastic reality you've seen on TV? No, you're not. You're trapped in it and cannot conceive life in a different way.
As for the daughter, I could only guess Stockholm syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome).
Whenever you think "why didn't they do this or that", remember. Why would they?

edit:
the father? well, if he fails to see all this as wrong, there's a very good chance that he's a sociopath, like most convicted death penalty offenders.

[TangerineOrange]

I just read today that there has been a reunion of sorts between Elisabeth F., her mother, and children that were living with her mother, above her in the house. Apparently the reunion went over well (all things considered). Also, CNN.com has some great video news clips of this, I thought.

And as for Stockholm Syndrome, I can see that, but at the same time, I'm not sure. I suppose only time will tell. I guess I see this case as being slightly different because while he was her captor and abuser, he was also her father, which brings another dimension into this. I guess that when I think of Stockholm Syndrome, I would be more likely to associate it with a case where the victim was not related (or had no previous relationship with) to the abuser. And while I'm sure that it could certainly be the case for Elisabeth F., I still believe that the fact that it was her father whom was the captor and abuser may change how she reacted in this situation.

[Gratisgulasch]

The worldwide reaction to this incident shows how deeply pathetic most of us are. Like vultures people jump at every story containing sex and death, and then wallow in other people's suffering. It's just disgusting.

The story was on the news, I know what happened and that's enough. I don't need every little bit of information on how he detained his victims in and how often he had sex with them etc. What happened in Amstetten is bad enough, but people with their nauseating greed for atrocities are making it even worse for the family, the town and the entire country. This remembers me of a very clever sentence Mariyln Manson said in Bowling for Columbine when asked what kind of question he would ask the kids at Columbine: "I wouldn't say a single word to them, I would listen to what they have to say and that's what no one did."

And besides, there are far more important things going on in the world. Unfortunately mostly without incest.

[Masayous]

The worldwide reaction to this incident shows how deeply pathetic most of us are. Like vultures people jump at every story containing sex and death, and then wallow in other people's suffering. It's just disgusting.

The story was on the news, I know what happened and that's enough. I don't need every little bit of information on how he detained his victims in and how often he had sex with them etc. What happened in Amstetten is bad enough, but people with their nauseating greed for atrocities are making it even worse for the family, the town and the entire country.

Yes.

Because when something like this happens, the world should just shut its eyes, ears and refuse to acknowledge the existence of such horrid barbarity.

Remember the holocaust? That vast extermination of millions of people? Should we not study every detail of that disgusting atrocity to ensure we know why it happened, what fueled it, how it was maintained and how it can be stopped in future so that the words "NEVER AGAIN" can be fulfilled?

Or should we just pretend it didn't happen and ignore it. Or, as you'd prefer, to acknowledge it and then resign it to the back of our minds, far from the reach of conscious thought - which is just as bad.

Granted, this case is nowhere near the level of genocide. However, it is related to the very worst of human ability and the darkest of human desire. It needs to be studied and analysed. It is required to know how it was maintained so that it can be combated in the future.

Or, alternatively, we can run around like three wise monkeys. See no evil. Hear no evil. Speak no evil.

[Gratisgulasch]

So you are trying to tell me that the people who follow the news about this case, are analyzing it and will combat it in the future? Come on, wake up. If this was the case every tabloid subscriber would be given the peace nobel price.

[Cristo]

So apparently Austrian housewives take everything at face value and under no circumstance do they NEVER EVER EVER go into their basements for any reason.

That's ridiculous, that mother was in on it.

Edit:

Actually to revise my statement, there is one possibility why there was a steel door in the basement.

Like it or not Switzerland and Austria are pretty similar, and I know that in Switzerland it's the law that every third house has to have a nuclear bomb shelter in their basement. Guess what? A nuclear bomb shelter usually includes a massive 7+ inch thick steel door. And I know that my neighbours never really used their bomb shelter that was situated towards the back of the basement - so if it's the same in Austria this could be one reason for the ignorance.

[Masayous]

Whether the interest of the reader is combative or perverse is of no consequence.

Everyone who reads this story will reflect on the information. The level of information they receive is directly proportional to their later ability to recognise and combat abuse in the future.

And no, not everyone will. I understand that the vast majority of those who read this article(s) will do so for the pleasure of imagination and fantasy, or for the pleasure of horror. That doesn't mean that information on the subject should be banned, or minimalist, though. Freedom of speech, and expression. And all that jazz.

[Gratisgulasch]

Well, in the case of journalism de jour it's not about freedom of speech, which we all take as granted today, it's about the pursuit of readers and people love to read about murder and sex. Their excessive coverage on this crime is a violation of the privacy of the victims - or do you want the world to know that you had sex with your dad?

[PixieStix]

There was another case some years ago in which a girl was chained in a high chair (i think?) and was basically treated like an animal. After being saved she learnt how to speak to some extend but lacked correct grammar because that sort of thing is learnt in early life. Maybe the kids will be able to learn how to speak in Austrian but whether or not they will ever be able to speak properly is questionable. Plus like so many people have said, they are basically starting life from new, they have never seen anything outside that room so i wonder how they will cope.

I don't understand how the wife didn't notice money differences, because he would have to supply food - what ever amount - and what about the births of the children, did he deliver them or what?

I've heard lots of responses to this story from people in my sixth form and it really annoys me the amount of people that go 'euurggh that's sick' - well yeah. They just focus on the rape , not the fact that this family has been bought up in such confinement for all of their lives other than the mother.

[BurgerKueen]

Gratisgulasch you're making it sound like we're asking to see a tape of the girl's rape. It's an inhumane crime and we obviously want to understand how someone could pull this off without anyone noticing. Maybe we're not simply little animals obsessed with sex but we want to make sure our next door neighbour is not hiding his son or daughter in his basement too, because apparently if they did we'd be blind to it.

I still think the children might develop the ability to speak because they had their mother and a TV around them. One of the articles said there was a like a team of experts working on them which I don't agree with. I think Gratis fails to realize that's what we should be protesting, not the media coverage. The media coverage might help get them money and support like it did to Natasha Kampusch but a bunch of therapists trying to analyze them will destroy their whole lives, they need the comfort of a normal family for once. It's not like the media is trying to find their address and photos.

[FlamingPeanuts]

Why not a team of experts, they should get all the help they can have! Its quite honorific really, he's ruined so many life's and will not really suffer himself, unless his prison mates find out.

EDIT: Saw this on BBc news yesterday so thoguht I would find the article, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7375904.stm , The program had a map of the basement but I cannot find it on the site.

EDIT2:map http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7373172.stm
Photos: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7372034.stm

[Dexide]

The article says the kids thought he was their grandfather. He must have scared her daughter and forced her to hide the truth from them.

This is a late response, but he was their grandfather, even though he was also their father. If someone rapes their daughter, then they are both the father of the children, and the father of their mother, making him both father and grandfather.

But anyways, this is really messed up. What really gets me is that you guys are probably right when you say that the daughter got used to rape, something that can tramitize people for life.

[HappyPalooza]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44608000/jpg/_44608062_austriaabusegetty2466.jpg
He really does look like a pervert.

[BurgerKueen]

Dexide you're right, I didn't think of that. It's like that scene in Chinatown where the woman is like "She is my daughter.. my sister.. my daughter.. GAAAH!!" I thought that movie was scarring but I don't think I'll be able to trust any old men from now on, heh.

Okay that map is just... wow. He planned it so intricately. I'm starting to feel like you can't blame the wife for not suspecting anything.

[Hawke]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44608000/jpg/_44608062_austriaabusegetty2466.jpg
He really does look like a pervert.

Also he looks like an incredibly old Daniel Day Lewis from There Will Be Blood.

[HappyPalooza]

I was thinking more like Vincent Price.
http://re3.yt-thm-a02.yimg.com/image/25/m3/2550096030

[Mr. Crow]

Well, in the case of journalism de jour it's not about freedom of speech, which we all take as granted today, it's about the pursuit of readers and people love to read about murder and sex. Their excessive coverage on this crime is a violation of the privacy of the victims - or do you want the world to know that you had sex with your dad?

Because the most important thing right now is letting the daughter have privacy. :ahe:

Never mind the fact that she's been held in a cellar for 24 years, right now the first thing on her mind is obviously that she's embarrassed.

[Shadowpriest]

Are there any pictures of the woman and her kids? I'd also really like to see the cellar, I couldn't get much from the pictures shown in the report.

This is truly terrible... what the fuck did that guy grow up with that could make him end up like this?

[BurgerKueen]

I think the links FlamingPeanuts posted shows all there is to see. Why on Earth do you want to see the kids and the woman anyway? This is not some red carpet ceremony.

[Ikin]

Seeing as the kids have never been exposed to light, I imagine taking pictures of them would literally burn their retinas.

[HappyPalooza]

Who says they were never exposed to light? I'm sure there was a lamp or something.

[BurgerKueen]

They probably have Seasonal Affective Disorder unless they had like a treatment lamp in the cellar. I think this would also explain why they would be reluctant to escape since according to wikipedia:

The most common symptoms of SAD include extreme fatigue, oversleeping, not being able to get out of bed, overeating, carbohydrate cravings and weight gain. It can also be accompanied by the regular symptoms of depression, such as low mood, loss of interest in activities and trouble concentrating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_affective_disorder

A regular lamp is not enough to fix that it seems, since people in Nordic countries face it at a higher percentage because of the long winter regardless of the fact that they do go out and have lamps and whatnot. It can also cause bipolarity and manic-depressive disorder apparently. Those people are going to have a hard time healing completely. Especially considering the kids will probably face genetic disorders too. :frown:

[thsabbath]

that must suck. Hope there was no anal rape or anything.

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[MistyTehMoose]

Because the most important thing right now is letting the daughter have privacy. :ahe:

Never mind the fact that she's been held in a cellar for 24 years, right now the first thing on her mind is obviously that she's embarrassed.

They have given them privacy. Although they are reporting the story they have not shown photos of Elisabeth or her children, and it is highly likely that when they get out of hospital they will go under a protection scheme and change their identities.

[potolife]

I can't imagine how horrible these kids lives will be now. Well at least the 19 and 18 year olds. All their teen years were spent living in a cellar. I can't imagine them being too smart, since they've never been to school. And how would their mother explain to them why they only lived in that cellar?

[Masayous]

And how would their mother explain to them why they only lived in that cellar?

I'm pretty sure they know already.

[Olah]

Austria is considering this basically the worst crime of which they've ever heard.

Fun fact about Australia: It isn't Austria.
And also since when do we consider it the worst crime of which we've ever heard?
It's got very little news coverage over hear, it was mentioned two or three times and that's about it.
I think it's because some guy shot a woman (and maybe her daughter if I remember correctly) in the face and then ran/drove off and the manhunt took up basically all of our news for the next few days.

[Tweek]

Ugh, you idiot. This happened in Austria, not Australia.

Unless you live in Austria, but it doesn't seem like it.

[Dauntasa]

Fun fact about Australia: It isn't Austria.
And also since when do we consider it the worst crime of which we've ever heard?
It's got very little news coverage over hear, it was mentioned two or three times and that's about it.
I think it's because some guy shot a woman (and maybe her daughter if I remember correctly) in the face and then ran/drove off and the manhunt took up basically all of our news for the next few days.

Fun Fact about Austria: That's where this crime took place.

[Cristo]

I'm really confused, why the hell is Australia involved in this topic now?

[MistyTehMoose]

Fun fact about Australia: It isn't Austria.

Well there goes the decent discussion.

[ChristineHeyMan]

k, well should we bring it back?

I had some friends over when the news report on this came out. We watched the whole thing in silence.
Like, how could humanity become so low?
This guy was obviously really sick and he's giving just another bad name to the human population.

[Cocktapus]

I don't think its really a situation of humanity becoming low, humanity has had some very low individuals since the beginning.

[JohnDoe]

Yeah we just got done talking about a whole bunch of cases like this in my psychology class. No doubt about it, each and every single case is severely messed up. (Though I thought the ones about the kids being raised by animals where kind of interesting) Anyways, from what I've been studying, the 5 year old should be alright, assuming that her mom and siblings showed her affection and stuff. It's been proven from other cases like these that those that had been showed love and affection usually turn out pretty normal if they're found at a young enough age.

[Marijuana]

I'm pretty sure there was one sixty odd years ago which was a teensy bit worse.

More like 70 years ago. Stop living in the past.

It must be inpossible for the cellar kids to pick up a life again. I just don't see no fucking way how that should happen. It's so sad. They'll just have to be executed or they must exept that they grew up as vampires, seeing their mother getting raped once in a while, wondering why then never got raped.

[fcon]

Bit late to this discussion but, in terms of the soundproofing: it was underground, therefore natural soundproofing. As MCR already said about the 7 inch door being there, not a hope in hell of getting through that or a sound or light or anything getting through it. Secondly, the door was behind shelves in his office, so his wife isn't going to go looking really hard around that room or care about a door behind bookshelves. The electric look and remote control he never left down should of aroused some suspicion though. In terms of escaping, ok there was 3 of them to attack him but they were all malnurished and really weak, he was well fed and alot stronger than them. Not a hope of beating him.

[El Mojado]

It is highly likely that probably the kids would commit sucide. I know it sounds messed up but they probably would. Its fucked up their head and they probably cannot lead a life.

[McGruff]

It is highly likely that probably the kids would commit sucide. I know it sounds messed up but they probably would. Its fucked up their head and they probably cannot lead a life.

Yeah, because its impossible to bounce back so suicides the only answer. With some proper help, they can go back to living a somewhat regular life. Maybe a name change too. Just because they were captives for several years doesn't mean they are all going to kill themselves. People do learn to cope, you know?

[Gratisgulasch]

A few years ago there was a similar case in Austria, where a girl named Natascha Kampusch was held captive in a cellar for about 10 years or something like that. Due to the pressure of public interest she accepted to be interviewed on national TV, which was watched by about half of the country's population and today she is that known that she will probably never will live a normal life again. So it's not as simply as you might think, McGruff.

[McGruff]

A few years ago there was a similar case in Austria, where a girl named Natascha Kampusch was held captive in a cellar for about 10 years or something like that. Due to the pressure of public interest she accepted to be interviewed on national TV, which was watched by about half of the country's population and today she is that known that she will probably never will live a normal life again. So it's not as simply as you might think, McGruff.

Its simply a matter of how you keep your affairs private. Now if she did get that name change like so many users have said, and considering that she was 18 at the time, she could maybe get by without being recognized. I just depends on how she chooses to handle the situation.

Also, how many people are held captive in Austria, and why in cellars? Is it the crime of choice or something?

[Shadowpriest]

I think the links FlamingPeanuts posted shows all there is to see. Why on Earth do you want to see the kids and the woman anyway? This is not some red carpet ceremony.

Well it'd be interesting to see them, living in the dark for 18 years, and if we get to see them maybe we'll know how well fed he kept them down there. Im just interested thats all.

[Dauntasa]

Yeah, because its impossible to bounce back so suicides the only answer. With some proper help, they can go back to living a somewhat regular life. Maybe a name change too. Just because they were captives for several years doesn't mean they are all going to kill themselves. People do learn to cope, you know?

They can't go back to leading a normal life, because they never had one. They'd been locked in a cellar for their entire lives. The only one who might possibly lead one is the five-year-old, and even with him the chance is low.

[BurgerKueen]

I think the attention Natasha Kampusch got wasn't unwanted by her. She said she wanted to use the money and fame she got to help other women. She even had a media advisor, so her situation is definitely not the same as this case. She even gave an interview about this case and said she wanted to help them.

[Bernardo]

I don't understand how the wife didn't notice money differences, because he would have to supply food - what ever amount - and what about the births of the children, did he deliver them or what?
One of my friend's father had a second family in another city and they found out this year. Guess what? He made more money than what he said he did.

As for the news thing, yes it's important to think about it and debate, and etc. So why doesn't happen on TV? It's just the same thing over and over again, it's sensationalism. Doesn't make you any more aware of something, hearing it 5 times or 20.
Are there any pictures of the woman and her kids? I'd also really like to see the cellar, I couldn't get much from the pictures shown in the report.

This is truly terrible... what the fuck did that guy grow up with that could make him end up like this?

It's truly terrible that you have the urge to see her face. Why would that make it any different? You've been watching too much big brother

[MistyTehMoose]

Well it'd be interesting to see them, living in the dark for 18 years, and if we get to see them maybe we'll know how well fed he kept them down there. Im just interested thats all.

They're not in a freak show, you insensitive prat.

[FlamingPeanuts]

They're not in a freak show, you insensitive prat.

I think it was sarcasm, and as to some replies to my post, there is one picture of the man and the rest are of the apartment and relate directly to the children's living conditions, I mean it was only 5ft tall!

They will probably still live a secluded life away from this, I mean you wont have learnt any skills you would have normally, and would have never talked to people away from their home. How did one of them get injured anyway?

[Axidos]

But, seriously, there are two children who have lived more than eighteen years, their entire childhood, their entire lives, imprisoned in a cellar. That's the worst part about this story. What's going to happen to them? They must be seriously fucked up.

They're in a psychiatric institute, currently. I can't imagine how they reacted when they realised what they'd been locked away from.

[Tempest]

Also,

I'm guessing there were screams in the beginning, but she would have grown (somewhat) used to it over the years. After that the soundproofing would be for 'just in case' sounds.

Are you fuckin' retarded?

[RandomLoserr]

That's fucking disgusting, he's screwed up if he molests his own daughter behind his wife's back.

[Cristo]

Are you fuckin' retarded?

No, honestly, he's not.

Imagine being locked in a cellar for 24 years. You lose normality, you forget what it was like outside, your spirit is broken, you begind to develope some weird Stockholm Syndrome-like relationship with your captor etc. it's really not that weird.

Her spirit was broken, and she realised that resistance was futile so she just settled in to, I guess, try and "make the best of it". And apparently they were cared for really well, as disturbing as that sounds.

[spaj]

No, honestly, he's not.

Imagine being locked in a cellar for 24 years. You lose normality, you forget what it was like outside, your spirit is broken, you begind to develope some weird Stockholm Syndrome-like relationship with your captor etc. it's really not that weird.

Her spirit was broken, and she realised that resistance was futile so she just settled in to, I guess, try and "make the best of it". And apparently they were cared for really well, as disturbing as that sounds.

Actually I was going to refute Tempest's comment as well but he was talking about the wife, not Elisabeth.

[Chad625]

Inmates are going to kill him within prison probably anyway. Child rapist get killed all the time by inmates with life or death penalty, I'm sure locking your daughter up for 24 years and repeatedly raping her will get him killed.

[PedroBear]

WTF?
24 year srsly how did you keep some one on a basement for 8640 days, does she even take a bath the whole time?
maybe she don't even know what a computer is

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[Assassin]

Did anyone actually see her on tv? No wonder he kept that thing locked away from mankind

[gigOtonic]

I've been trying to follow this story as closely as possible. This kind of thing disturbs me to an incredible level. As I'm currently located in France, I don't know how this is all being diffused in the USA or elsewhere, but here we've been bothered with other pedophilic acts (Swedish girl raped and killed, body found close to Paris; child rapist currently in trial for 7 rapes; the list goes on).

Obviously, we can't judge which one is worse than the other, these are all horrible trials, and realising that some human beings really are as disturbed as this in their minds leaves me mute.

[Dauntasa]

They're in a psychiatric institute, currently. I can't imagine how they reacted when they realised what they'd been locked away from.

That must suck. You're finally free, and then they lock you in a padded cell.

[tunacake]

Actually I was going to refute Tempest's comment as well but he was talking about the wife, not Elisabeth.

No, I was talking about Elisabeth.

And that's exactly what I meant MCR. 24 years is a fucking long time. If you're exposed to anything for a long enough time, you're obviously not going to like it or anything, but every second of it is not going to be persistent agony. You DO get an obscured sense of reality and like you said she would have developed some kind of Stockholm syndrome.

[ixbelievexinxdreams]

I wonder why the mother never got suspicious.

[notafan]

Oh my...that's the most horrible thing I've ever heard. :frown:

How did he deal with common necessities and things that came with growing up? How did they bathe and such? And (hard to think about) how did they deal with the girls' menstruation? Ah it's just so sick.

[MistyTehMoose]

No, I was talking about Elisabeth.

And that's exactly what I meant MCR. 24 years is a fucking long time. If you're exposed to anything for a long enough time, you're obviously not going to like it or anything, but every second of it is not going to be persistent agony. You DO get an obscured sense of reality and like you said she would have developed some kind of Stockholm syndrome.

Stop throwing the phrase 'Stockholm Syndrome' around to sound smart. She clearly isn't in love with him, as she ended up telling the hospital what had happened when she confirmed that she would never see him again.

[potolife]

Stop throwing the phrase 'Stockholm Syndrome' around to sound smart. She clearly isn't in love with him, as she ended up telling the hospital what had happened when she confirmed that she would never see him again.

Stockholm syndrome doesn't necessarily mean they're in love with their captor, just that they show a loyalty to them. I agree, however. She probably just lost the will to escape after so long. From what I can tell, they had everything they needed to live. After a while, she probably felt there was no use in attempting to escape, she'd only be forced back.

[BurgerKueen]

Okay, I read an article in today's paper saying some neighbors suspected this. One of the girl's friends from elementary said he suspected the whole thing but was scared to go to the police. He said his dog would bark every time he was by the basement door and some of the things the man did got him suspicious. I don't get what the fuck he was afraid of. Such a great friend! He knew his father had been raping the girl even before the whole cellar thing, she tried to run away several times as a kid and hated the man. But no, he was too scared to tell it to the police.

[Tyler_Legrand]

So you're going to use this event as an opportunity to self-righteously judge another person.

[BurgerKueen]

Until I can understand why the heck he would be afraid of going to the police, yes I will.

[Dauntasa]

Until I can understand why the heck he would be afraid of going to the police, yes I will.

He was her friend from elementary school. He was probably only ten years old. Of course he would be scared.

[Clerlic]

He was her friend from elementary school. He was probably only ten years old. Of course he would be scared.

But wasn't she locked up when she was like 18? A 18 year old dude should certainly suspect something was wrong.

Unless she had a 10 year old friend which is unlikely.

[tunacake]

Stop throwing the phrase 'Stockholm Syndrome' around to sound smart.

Think of another phrase and I'll use that one, your highness.

Until I can understand why the heck he would be afraid of going to the police, yes I will.

This guy probably had only a vague suspicion, certainly not enough to act on.

[notafan]

But wasn't she locked up when she was like 18? A 18 year old dude should certainly suspect something was wrong.

Unless she had a 10 year old friend which is unlikely.

I thought she was locked up when she was 11...?

[Chad625]

The Australian dream.

He was liven' it!

[MistyTehMoose]

Austrian, you tard.

Think of another phrase and I'll use that one, your highness.

I was thinking not to use it at all, as it clearly doesn't fit this situation, even vaguely.

[Chad625]

Australian

[Masayous]

AMSTETTEN, Austria (CNN) -- DNA testing has confirmed that Josef Fritzl, who police say confessed to holding his daughter hostage in underground rooms for more than two decades, fathered seven children with her, an Austrian law enforcement official said Tuesday.

The first paragraph of the article.

Read and engage brain before commenting.

[Chad625]

The first paragraph of the article.

Read and engage brain before commenting.

Its an semi-inside joke you wouldn't understand. Oh and don't try to point out the obvious fucktard its just on every news station and news site constantly.

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[Clerlic]

I thought she was locked up when she was 11...?


Timeline
1977: Elisabeth Fritzl claims she was first abused by her father Josef when she was 11 years old.

1984: Elisabeth is allegedly lured into the cellar of her house and drugged and handcuffed by her father. She is forced to write letters saying she has run away from home.

She was abused for 7 years and the friend didn't do anything about it. Although we don't know all the circumstances.

[Rob]

Is there a picture of the victim anywhere? Assassin mentioned seeing her on the news. I'm kinda curious what 24 years of isolation does to a person.

[fcon]

No actual picture, just an artist impression of what she looks like now:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1314691,00.html

[Chrono]

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23481334-details/Tenant%20who%20lived%20in%20incest%20house%20for%2 012%20years%20heard%20knocking%20from%20sex%20dung eon%20'but%20did%20nothing'/article.do

whoops, too slow

ohoh, mine compares the two faces, her young and old

[Tyler_Legrand]

Hahaha, 15 years punishment for locking someone up for nearly 25 years

That's a good one

:indiff:

[fcon]

He'll be dead within the 15 so doesn't really matter what he gets. He should get raped every day for the rest of his life to make someway up for it.

[Tyler_Legrand]

Y'know I don't know if he'll even last 15 years. How old is he anyways?

[Ollivak]

Apparently he's angry about being labeled as a "monster," by the media.

Fritzl's lawyer, Rudolf Mayer, said his client had access to a television in jail and was closely watching coverage of his case, which has garnered worldwide attention.

Mayer said Fritzl was bothered by the fact that he was being made out to be a monster. He said Fritzl told him: "I'm only being portrayed as a monster and not as someone who committed monstrous acts."

Mayer made his comments when asked to confirm a report Wednesday by the newspaper Oesterreich that quoted Fritzl as saying he was not a monster and that without him, his 19-year-old daughter Kerstin would no longer be alive.I sort of think that if you commit monstrous acts for (at least) 24 years straight, that qualifies you as a monster.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/05/07/austria.meeting.ap/index.html

Also, he's 73.

[Chrono]

I think scales make you a monster myself

[kilava]

I was waiting for someone to post this.

I'm waiting for the details to come out of this. The guys wife, her mother I assume, had no fucking idea he was keeping his daughter and three children locked in their cellar.

And by the looks of things on the news, it wasn't some rural backwoods type setting like you'd expect, it was upper middle class housing.

i wonder if the mother actually had no idea or just, kinda blocked it out... i mean wtf?? she had to know something was going on, he couldnt just disappear into his workshop all the time and you not know, right?
this whole thing is just creept tho!

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[Tyler_Legrand]

Yeah that totally hasn't been covered

Besides, look at the stupid family photo. It's huge.

[Silverpaperplate]

I'm guessing there were screams in the beginning, but she would have grown (somewhat) used to it over the years. After that the soundproofing would be for 'just in case' sounds.

He told her he needed help with the door in the basement and he chained her to a pipe down there. She creamed until she had no voice left. When she was done screaming (Which took more than just one day, mind you) he started to systematically abuse her. He later made the chain longer so she was able to reach the toilet.
I'm a firm believer of death sentence being the wrong thing, but this is really pushing my beliefs around.
Heh, even the police who had been down there to collect evidence and such have gotten psychological help. I've seen some pictures the police released for the press and I honestly can't imagine I'd be able to wander around in such a place. Especially not when one comes to think of what happened happened down there during those 24 years.

EDIT: Just realized this thread was bigger than one page. Whoops. :lol:

[Chronon]

Why did the dad feel that this was worth it? Couldn't he have banged a prostitute whenever he felt horny, instead of having to set up an elaborate facade of lies, furnish a small room, provide food for four people, live his entire life in fear of the rest of his family finding out, make four people utterly miserable and cause them unrepairable psychological damage, ruin four lives (five if you count his own), and commit a horrible horrible crime? I mean, I guess he didn't want his daughter telling the cops, but still? Couldn't he have killed her and made it look like an accident? He doesn't seem like he was insane, just horrible, sick and twisted.

[MistyTehMoose]

Why did the dad feel that this was worth it? Couldn't he have banged a prostitute whenever he felt horny.

Prostitutes aren't 11.

[notafan]

She was abused for 7 years and the friend didn't do anything about it. Although we don't know all the circumstances.

Fritzl allegedly started sexuallly abusing her when she was just 11 and is believed to started plotting to lock her up in his cellar at around the same time.

Which source did you get that from?

[Clerlic]

Which source did you get that from?

Strange, all the other articles say that he lured her in the cellar when she was 18.

[MistyTehMoose]

Strange, all the other articles say that he lured her in the cellar when she was 18.

He did, but he was abusing her for a long time before that, the first time he abused her was when she was 11.

[katemonster]

I'm curious as to what most of you guys think is worse about this case: the raping his daughter or locking her and her kids up for so long? Obviously both are completely horrific and I think both are pretty much equally bad but I think that locking her up is kind of worse, but I was discussing this with a mate and he thought the rape was worse.

[Marijuana]

Maybe the rape gave her some pleasure sometimes. Locking her up most likily didn't. So lockin her up is the worst in my opinion.

[Gwibbles]

I'm a firm believer of death sentence being the wrong thing, but this is really pushing my beliefs around.

I don't think a death sentence is enough...

[Rob]

Maybe the rape gave her some pleasure sometimes.

What.

[Marijuana]

Edit: ignore this post

[Clerlic]

I'd say the constant rapings were much worse, since she was fed and had a TV while being captive. But while raped, she had to also give birth 7 times with no professional medical assistance. Although, if she would only be raped without being held captive, some day she might have done something about it.

[opn4bzns]

Maybe the rape gave her some pleasure sometimes. Locking her up most likily didn't. So lockin her up is the worst in my opinion.

So you would be cool with your dad raping you for 24 years as long as you weren't locked up?

[Rob]

I'd say the constant rapings were much worse, since she was fed and had a TV while being captive.

Yeah, but it's Austrian TV dude. I bet it sucks. Plus she probably had to go through the whole run of Step By Step in the nineties. Imagine that being your entire world.

Gonna have to say the rape was better.

[opn4bzns]

Yeah, but it's Austrian TV dude. I bet it sucks. Plus she probably had to go through the whole run of Step By Step in the nineties. Imagine that being your entire world.

Gonna have to say the rape was better.

It's mostly reruns of The Simpsons in German in the daytime and porn with the penetration slightly off screen to avoid strange censorship laws at night.

In other news, apparently hitler made him do it. (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=559998&rss=yes)

[fcon]

...The retired electrical engineer...

That explains a lot about the door and how well the soundproofing was.

[Pat]

Knock, Knock.
Who's there?
GRANDAD!

[Chronon]

Uh, for the which is worse debate, consider this: would you rather be raped by your dad for twenty-four years, or be locked in a basement with only a TV to keep your amused for twenty-four years? I think I could answer that in a heartbeat. The fact that he locked his daughter away is far, far more horrible than the raping. But that's just me, I guess.

I have another question. When the first child reached age eleven, why didn't he just start raping HER and not Elisabeth? I mean, Elisabeth was thirty-something and looked to be in her fifties. Not very erotic if you ask me. If he decided to feed the girl more than he fed Elisabeth, so she would be fit, then he could probably have gotten more pleasure out of her.

[tunacake]

I have another question. When the first child reached age eleven, why didn't he just start raping HER and not Elisabeth? I mean, Elisabeth was thirty-something and looked to be in her fifties. Not very erotic if you ask me. If he decided to feed the girl more than he fed Elisabeth, so she would be fit, then he could probably have gotten more pleasure out of her.

Obviously he had some kind of disgusting attraction to the daughter in particular. She wasn't just some piece of ass he wanted to lock away forever and ever.

And another thing
Not very erotic if you ask me.
And you think an 11 year old is erotic?


Keep in mind you don't know all of the facts, dude.

[Tyler_Legrand]

I have another question. When the first child reached age eleven, why didn't he just start raping HER and not Elisabeth? I mean, Elisabeth was thirty-something and looked to be in her fifties. Not very erotic if you ask me. If he decided to feed the girl more than he fed Elisabeth, so she would be fit, then he could probably have gotten more pleasure out of her.

Because you fool, he wanted her, and her only, not just any old kid. Haven't you ever been in love?

[Fledge]

So now it's come out that apparently he locked her in his basement to protect her from the evils of the world, and just started molesting her after a while of that. That makes it okay, obviously.

Source: http://www.denverpost.com/nationworld/ci_9198665

[Marijuana]

Because you fool, he wanted her, and her only, not just any old kid. Haven't you ever been in love?

Yeah. And when you're in love with somebody you totally lock them in your basement for 24 years, or longer if those damn cops didn't interupt you.

These people should be killed right after birth.

[Ox]

Yeah. And when you're in love with somebody you totally lock them in your basement for 24 years, or longer if those damn cops didn't interupt you.

These people should be killed right after birth.

People who, when they're an ADULT, rape their daughters - as in children they have after puberty - should be killed at birth?!

[tunacake]

How come Mary Jane gets a custom title? :mad:

EDIT: People who, when they're an ADULT, rape their daughters - as in children they have after puberty - should be killed at birth?!
I disagree. They should be killed BEFORE birth.

Wait, what?

[Marijuana]

I guess people here think I'm to much of a retard to be normal.

And about "how do you know if this baby is going to rape his doughter once" thing. I guess that could be a problem. But I have the perfect awnser. We wait for them to grow up and actually commit the crime, so we know for sure they did it. And THEN we kill/punish them.

[tunacake]

I guess people here think I'm to much of a retard to be normal.

And about "how do you know if this baby is going to rape his doughter once" thing. I guess that could be a problem. But I have the perfect awnser. We wait for them to grow up and actually commit the crime, so we know for sure they did it. And THEN we kill/punish them.

That doesn't really awnser the question.
:roffle:

[thisiswhoiam]

First how did the wife not notice her daughter was gone for 24 years
Second the kids the daughter had would hve their grandpa be heir dad.
CREEPY

[Marijuana]

You actually read any of this? That perve made evrybody believe their doughter had run away.

[thisiswhoiam]

You actually read any of this? That perve made evrybody believe their doughter had run away.

no i didnt read i just heard it on the radio

[Marijuana]

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/6078/facepalmpj5.gif

[thisiswhoiam]

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/6078/facepalmpj5.gif

he looks lik you

[Marijuana]

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/2422/facepalm2qq5.png
Please go on, I have plenty of these things.

[thisiswhoiam]

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/2422/facepalm2qq5.png
Please go on, I have plenty of these things.

y do u have so many

[Marijuana]

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/9062/facepalm3ds6.jpg
I've been facepalming a lot on the internet.

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[thisiswhoiam]

you mean youve been crotchpalming

[Mr Anorexia]

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/9062/facepalm3ds6.jpg
I've been facepalming a lot on the internet.
What is this internet?

[Vactorette]

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/6078/facepalmpj5.gif

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/2422/facepalm2qq5.png
Please go on, I have plenty of these things.

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/9062/facepalm3ds6.jpg
.

All of these accurately depict my reaction every time I see that Marijuana has made a post.



and I think that the wife is absolutely in denial about knowing that her daughter was in the basement. How quiet was she? Weren't there sounds while she was in labor?

If I know anything about a mother saying she didn't know something absolutely horrific and disgusting was happening to her children for years (and I do), she most likely knew and didn't care. Her mother selectively chose her reality.

[Marijuana]

Even the once that could be concidered not retarded?

[Ox]

This thread has gone from bad to Marijuana.

[Ikin]

What the hell happened to this thread? One minute we're discussing the rape and now we're posting facepalms?

[Marijuana]

The century is only going on for 8 years now. How can you already say this is the crime of the century.

[Ox]

The century is only going on for 8 years now. How can you already say this is the crime of the century.

Who are you talking to? Nobody on this page has said that?

A century is 100 years.

[Marijuana]

EDIT: ignore this

[GnR]

I don't see the big deal about this. Since when is it wrong to enslave your daughter and rape her?

Plus he had a good reason. That bitch went out clubbing, smoke, and drank. Obviously a few backhand slaps didn't get it through her head. He taught that bitch a mightly good lesson.

[Ikin]

The century is only going on for 8 years now. How can you already say this is the crime of the century.

I didn't call it that. :indiff:

[Fledge]

I don't see the big deal about this. Since when is it wrong to enslave your daughter and rape her?

Plus he had a good reason. That bitch went out clubbing, smoke, and drank. Obviously a few backhand slaps didn't get it through her head. He taught that bitch a mightly good lesson.

You're fucking awful. Does it look like anyone else in this thread is joking about this shit?

[Ikin]

I don't see the big deal about this. Since when is it wrong to enslave your daughter and rape her?

Plus he had a good reason. That bitch went out clubbing, smoke, and drank. Obviously a few backhand slaps didn't get it through her head. He taught that bitch a mightly good lesson.

....please tell me that was an awful attempt at humor. Please.

[MistyTehMoose]

I read the article in the Courier Mail about how she clubbed and stuff too. I do see where he is coming from.

[thisiswhoiam]

Just to clear it all up the wife could be totally oblivious there was a maze to get to the daughter and you had to open 8 doors with locks and it was soundproofed

[Tastychainsaws]

So what for 24 years his wife NEVER once found a reason to go down there. NEVER?

[thisiswhoiam]

So what for 24 years his wife NEVER once found a reason to go down there. NEVER?
why would you need to go down through a secret passage into a dungeon

[Fledge]

why would you need to go down through a secret passage into a dungeon

Wouldn't you find it odd that there WAS a secret passage into a dungeon in your basement in the first place?

[thisiswhoiam]

Wouldn't you find it odd that there WAS a secret passage into a dungeon in your basement in the first place?

hey stupid the keywod in this is secret passage so i don't think she would know

[Dauntasa]

Wouldn't you find it odd that there WAS a secret passage into a dungeon in your basement in the first place?

Well, it was a secret passage. You wouldn't find it odd because you wouldn't know it was there. Plus, he told her he was building a fallout shelter, so she wouldn't be suspicious of a thick steel door in the basement.

[Fledge]

Well, it was a secret passage. You wouldn't find it odd because you wouldn't know it was there. Plus, he told her he was building a fallout shelter, so she wouldn't be suspicious of a thick steel door in the basement.

Ah, I see. I guess she must not have been very curious. I know I would have at one point gone down there to see what my spouse had built...

[thisiswhoiam]

Well, it was a secret passage. You wouldn't find it odd because you wouldn't know it was there. Plus, he told her he was building a fallout shelter, so she wouldn't be suspicious of a thick steel door in the basement.

thank you i hope that gets through fledge's thick head

[Vactorette]

Secret passage or not, there is no way in hell that there could possibly be a place in myown home that i just didn't know about. No Way. People that are in denial that hard have learned to make a thousand and two excuses over the years. I'm so sure that if it were a normal person in that house they would have, at one point in the two decades that they lived there, wanted to see down there. No way she had absolutely no clue

[thisiswhoiam]

Secret passage or not, there is no way in hell that there could possibly be a place in myown home that i just didn't know about. No Way. People that are in denial that hard have learned to make a thousand and two excuses over the years. I'm so sure that if it were a normal person in that house they would have, at one point in the two decades that they lived there, wanted to see down there. No way she had absolutely no clue

If it was a good hiddenpssageway and then they could think she ran away or was kidnapped

[tunacake]

Holy fuck. What was all that? Marijuana is a goddamn retard.

Anyway, we're back on track-ish.

My opinion on the wife is that she was absolutely in on it. Or at least fully aware of it.

[Vactorette]

thisiswhoiam,
You are really stupid. I know about people who do things like this from experience, how do you know?

[thisiswhoiam]

You are really stupid. I know about people who do things like this from experience, how do you know?

o you know people who lock their daughters in dungeons and rape them for 24 years

[tunacake]

Edit: nevermind.

[Vactorette]

[QUOTE=Vactorette;539353
If I know anything about a mother saying she didn't know something absolutely horrific and disgusting was happening to her children for years (and I do), she most likely knew and didn't care. Her mother selectively chose her reality.[/QUOTE]

Dumb ass. I've been through this already. Catch up please.

[thisiswhoiam]

wutever just think wut you want i think it is easy for a person to think their daughter was kidnapped because thinking o my daughter is in the dungeon wouldnt be the first thought in my head

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[Vactorette]

well, you are from Minnesota. That makes you sheltered and weird. Crazy shit happens every day.

[Tyler_Legrand]

It would've been super ironic if there was actually a nuclear war and everyone was forced to go down to the "shelter".

[Clerlic]

The century is only going on for 8 years now. How can you already say this is the crime of the century.

Yeah, if you ignore small things like 9/11.

[ShadowFlame]

That is sick!
What sick,cruel demented being Would do that?
I mean imagine an 18 year old being exposed to the world?!

[MistyTehMoose]

thisiswhoiam,
You are really stupid. I know about people who do things like this from experience, how do you know?

You know/are the wife of someone who locked their daughter away?

The husband told his wife that she ran away, she obviously pretty upset and didn't think that the bomb shelter downstairs was related to her daughter. they don't really directly correlate in a normal person's situation. Unless she was thinking:

'Oh my, this is terrible, my daughter has run away. I would love to go seek comfort from my husband whom I love and care for but I have my suspicions he's locked away my daughter in that bomb shelter he made a while ago.'

I think she would be going through several stages of guilt, wondering what she did to drive her daughter to leaving, to be worried about a bomb shelter.

[opn4bzns]

The wife was in on it, I reckon. I read an article which I now can't find saying that he went on holiday overseas for a few weeks some years ago. Who 'looked after' the daughter?

[MistyTehMoose]

Probably noone. All four people downstairs were terribly malnourished as well, you know.

If a legal team hasn't found fault on the mother then I doubt a bunch of teenagers on the internet are going to.

[Chaplin]

Such a horrible story. I feel bad for the daughter, Elisabeth whose life is practically ruined.

[Vactorette]

You know/are the wife of someone who locked their daughter away?

The husband told his wife that she ran away, she obviously pretty upset and didn't think that the bomb shelter downstairs was related to her daughter. they don't really directly correlate in a normal person's situation. Unless she was thinking:

'Oh my, this is terrible, my daughter has run away. I would love to go seek comfort from my husband whom I love and care for but I have my suspicions he's locked away my daughter in that bomb shelter he made a while ago.'

I think she would be going through several stages of guilt, wondering what she did to drive her daughter to leaving, to be worried about a bomb shelter.

Now you're not even thinking logically. I never said that she was psychic and knew right away what was going on. I said that after twenty four years there had to have been several signs that she was just pushing aside because she didn't want to believe it. Several big signs.


OH for heaven's sake. If I've posted it more than once I've posted it too many times, but here, for those of you that like to question before reading:



If I know anything about a mother saying she didn't know something absolutely horrific and disgusting was happening to her children for years (and I do), she most likely knew and didn't care. Her mother selectively chose her reality.

[tunacake]

If I know anything about a mother saying she didn't know something absolutely horrific and disgusting was happening to her children for years (and I do),:

"And I do" is not a goddamn explanation. Stop using that as a defense.

[Vactorette]

A mother= my mother.
saying she didn't know= what she told police, even though every one of us told her to her face at one point or another.
something horrific and disgusting= what was going on in our home
her children= she had three girls, none were spared
for years= ten years to be exact

and although her husband plead guilty and is in jail, she still continues to deny that anything went down, her defense is "he plead guilty so the girls wouldn't lie in court. It was to protect them."

She's still married to him to this day and she visits him in jail every Sunday.

That is one hefty dose of denial.

Sufficient?

[tunacake]

No. That whole post was fucking incomprehensible. And your analogies are borderline irrelevant.

[Triple J]

well, you are from Minnesota. That makes you sheltered and weird. Crazy shit happens every day.

Uh...hey now.


But anyways like we can argue about how many ways this plan of his could have gone wrong but really there's not much to discuss about what could have happened because obviously it didn't.

[Vactorette]

No it isn't. I was talking about the man's wife and how she must have been in denial about the whole situation and then I said that I knew what I was talking about.

I think you're confusing my point. I never said I went through the exact same thing that this poor girl did.

People were saying that the wife could have been completely innocent and I was trying to point out that when you're that closely involved with someone like that, there must have been signs you didn't see because you didn't want to see them. I was there and watched my mother ignore all the signs that something was very wrong, and it wasn't even as bad as having a prisoner in my home for over two decades.

you're borderline irrelevant.

[HappinessMan]

NO YOU. Hey look I can bold shit too. The guy was a psycho yes, but honestly she had to have known Josef was hiding something, or she could actually be blissfully ignorant.

[Vactorette]

I like to put things in bold to emphasize my point. I suppose I do do it a lot though.

[Tyler_Legrand]

What are you doing? What's your point? Do you want the mother to be punished too or what?

[Kwashi13]

Man - this is the sort of crap that makes me sit back and take a moment to try and not kill the bastard for doing what he did. :( :( :(

[Kwashi13]

So what for 24 years his wife NEVER once found a reason to go down there. NEVER?

How could she if she didn't know anything about it?

[Kwashi13]

Such a horrible story. I feel bad for the daughter, Elisabeth whose life is practically ruined.

It's hard to tell how the life of the kids would be like. It'd probably be their secret for life... If they adapt to all this quickly, they'd have a good chance at adopting this new world and keeping it in their past...
They had TV and radio as news of this world...

I hope and pray that things turn out ok for them.

[Kwashi13]

The wife was in on it, I reckon. I read an article which I now can't find saying that he went on holiday overseas for a few weeks some years ago. Who 'looked after' the daughter?

That just gives it another sickening twist. There ARE Effed up parents out there tho...
I remember a few years back about how this couple killed their very young (4-12 yr-old) son/daughter and buried him/her in their basement under some cement and claimed missing. OFC - the police searched under the new cement and found the body. :(

There're even weirder cases in the psychological fields if anyone's cared to have a look.

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[Tastychainsaws]

How could she if she didn't know anything about it?

Still there must of been at least some reason to go down there. Over 24 years she never ONCE had just one tiny reason to just open the door and walk down the stairs?

[thisiswhoiam]

well, you are from Minnesota. That makes you sheltered and weird. Crazy shit happens every day.

There is nothing wrong with Minnesota. We are the same as every other state except colder so don't judge Minnesotans.

[Hobo_Hank]

I heard from this guy who told someone... that one of the kids he had, had a twin who didn't make it. so he creamted the dead kid in the oven. either way, dude fucked up >.<

[Graft]

There is nothing wrong with Minnesota.

Of course they won't admit it. We all know the truth though.

And you guys are just mad because you don't have the balls to protect your innocent daughter from the atrocities of this world.

[Navi]

That's not even describable, wow can you imagine how the children felt after seeing the outside world?

[Graft]

That's not even describable, wow can you imagine how the children felt after seeing the outside world?

Probably glad that they were protected by a loving father/grandfather and didn't have to see all the horrible things mankind does.

[Dauntasa]

Probably glad that they were protected by a loving father/grandfather and didn't have to see all the horrible things mankind does.

I highly doubt that. They were probably glad that they were being let out of their father/grandfather's underground rape dungeon.