Learning Music Theory

[cabhats]

I've been playing guitar on and off for something like 8 years now. All I've done is learn a few songs, some scales, and sorta learned to sing n' play. I've decided to learn the stuff behind the music so that I have the means to improvise and compose and all the fun stuff. I know about notes (ABCDEFG), flats n sharps (how B# is actually C, and E# is F), octaves, I can read sheet music with a little difficulty, and I can read tabs. I've had a bunch of teachers before I went to uni, but they all emphasized playing technique rather than theory for some reason. As a result I have vague recollections of keys, "tone tone semitone tone..." and stuff like that but I really have no idea.

I have one or two books on the way, but am at a loss as to where to start. The theory I know is full of holes so I though I should start at the beginning again and just briefly read through the stuff I know, unfortunately I don't really know where the beginning is, or if I even should start at said beginning. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Paying a tutor isn't an option because I'd have to pay them, and find the time for lessons (I'm on a student budget, moneywise & timewise). Are there any particularly good books? Websites are good too although I would prefer books. Any other ways I can learn?

[Pelican Man]

Hate to break it to you, but the best way to learn is through a teacher. Whether in school or getting private lessons.

As for books? Go to a music store, ask them. It's their job.

Start off learning the C Major/A minor scale. It's all the natural notes; ABCDEFG. Learn how to read the treble and bass clefs. Practice.

[cabhats]

Hate to break it to you, but the best way to learn is through a teacher. Whether in school or getting private lessons.

As for books? Go to a music store, ask them. It's their job.

Start off learning the C Major/A minor scale. It's all the natural notes; ABCDEFG. Learn how to read the treble and bass clefs. Practice.

Yeah I know. I can't get lessons at the moment though. And I'm not in school anyway.

I'm going to a couple of music shops tomorrow.

Sweet as! Yeah I can read the treble clef kinda slowly, don't know the bass clef though.

[Kenneh]

Learn the scales first, in all positions if you could.

[Pelican Man]

Learn the scales first, in all positions if you could.

He wants to learn theory, learning in all positions isn't that great of an idea. He needs to first worry about the minor in A position, and major in C, work out how the notes are related, what the notes are, etc, then worry about other 'positions'.
And then he would need to take it one step at a time, first adding a sharp, working out the major and minor, seeing how that goes in a stave, what notes are where, and so on.

[Casalen]

Google everything. Scales and chord progressions are good for starting. Reading sheet music is extremely helpful for that, which is part of why most guitar players don't know crap about music. Learn how all of the different scales are composed, chord theory and composition based on chord progression. I'm sure a site out there tells you those things, teachers aren't always necessary. So far most of what I'm reading requires background knowledge, but if I see anything good I'll point you that way. Good luck, and congratulations on taking the first step towards being a real musician. Most people don't even get that far.

[edit] Maybe there's some good stuff here:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Music
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Music:Scales_and_Intervals

[drunkchuck]

Here's some good stuff:

http://ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/for_beginners/learning_music_theory_the_beginning.html

Honestly, I don't think learning to read music and all that is necessary for learning theory. If you want to know your musical notation and write sheet music and sight read pieces then sure, go ahead.

This really helped my soloing, it's not too much to do with theory, but it's a video every guitarist should watch.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5777562536751428345&q=melodic+control

[lobster bisque anyone?]

That Marty Friedman video was a fucking hour!

[tunacake]

I'm going to a couple of music shops tomorrow.

Sweet as! Yeah I can read the treble clef kinda slowly, don't know the bass clef though.

Treble Clef lines=Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge and spaces=FACE

Bass Clef Lines=Good Boys Deserve Fudge Always and Spaces=All Cows Eat Grass

The only way to learn those is to keep the little acronyms in mind and practice them.
And my dilemma is the complete opposite of yours. My guitar teacher is all about the theory, making it hard to get motivated since I'm not really playing what I'd like to. My piano teacher is a nice mix of playing/theory though.

[MangaFreak]

Learn the chromatic scale
Ab A Bb B C C# D Eb E F F# G

[Killer Carebear]

Learn the chromatic scale
Ab A Bb B C C# D Eb E F F# G
...

Something that may help:

Let's use C major

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C--simple, but when you riff off of a major scale, it sounds a tad too cheesy and optimistic, eh?

However, play the same scale from the 2nd note (D to D) and you get a Dorian scale: D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D. It's the same, but the new outlook gives it a jazzier/funkier feel (In my opinion).

From the third it's a Phrygian scale: E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E. I associate the Phrygian scale with metal.

From the fourth (F) it's Lydian, which sounds like a mix between major and minor.

From the fifth (G) it's Mixolydian, a jazzy and optimistic feel.

From the sixth (A) it's an Aeolian scale (Minor scale).

Lastly, from the 7th (B) it's a Locrian scale, which sounds diminished and doesn't really resolve itself.

Although you're just playing a C-Major scale, looking at it seven different ways can really help you improvise in the style you need to.

[Pelican Man]

Learn the chromatic scale
Ab A Bb B C C# D Eb E F F# G

If you don't even know the basic fact that you should stick to flats OR sharps, not both, you shouldn't be trying to aid someone in music theory. Or maybe you didn't know that Ab = G#, etc. Either way, you're hopeless. And knowing the chromatic scale really doesn't help what he's asking for.

[cabhats]

[edit] Maybe there's some good stuff here:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Music
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Music:Scales_and_Intervals
Having a look at those now.

Here's some good stuff:

http://ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/f...beginning.html
I had a look at the ultimate-guitar one before... It was a lil confusing to be honest but it did help significantly. I'm having a look at the video now.

Treble Clef lines=Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge and spaces=FACE
Heh, I actually remember that one.

...
However, play the same scale from the 2nd note (D to D) and you get a Dorian scale: D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D. It's the same, but the new outlook gives it a jazzier/funkier feel (In my opinion).
So that is the C scale in the Dorian mode?
To me it doesn't really look different at all. By playing the C Dorian you mean when composing/improvising the music would come to rest and such on D's instead of C's?

[Kenneh]

Try not to worry much about theory when you're improvising and composing. Music is a way of personal expression, if you follow a set of specific rules then there isn't much creativity there right?

To your question: No. D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D is a D Dorian. E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E is a E Phyrigian. You just shift the intervals around to get the mode around the root note you want.

Try playing a C major scale over a C5, then try playing it again over a D5. You're using the same notes, but it expresses a different feeling over different chords.

Easy shit man!

[Casalen]

You're last comment is correct, you would rest on D, F and A (root, 3rd, 5th).

While rules aren't the most important of anything, it's important to know them. Discordants and the like work, but you should understand the basics of theory to understand when to do what and be capable of interacting with musicians.

Also, a quick anecdote regarding guitar players without theory. I used to be a high school student, and am now a college student, so I see a lot of those. In high school there was a talent show, which I didn't go to but was made aware of. Apparently many of these full of themselves not really musicians went on stage and played the main riff to Enter Sandman. Over and over. As they had no background in theory and no desire to learn (their interest in music stopping at looking cool), they were not capable of playing anything but a couple of sections they learned by rote.

[cabhats]

Try not to worry much about theory when you're improvising and composing. Music is a way of personal expression, if you follow a set of specific rules then there isn't much creativity there right?

Wait what? I thought the point of theory was to make it easier to express yourself and not sound shit. And that you don't follow the rules to the letter, in fact I thought those 'rules' were more sorta vagueish kinda guidelines to work around.

Edit: After I watched that Marty Friedman video I think I get it what you meant. It's more, 'make your own rules up by what sounds good' as opposed to following the general set of rules, although the general set of rules is a good place to start.

[Killer Carebear]

I'll pop in here every so often with potentially useful tidbits:

When you're reading music, more times than not they won't give you the key (unless you're playing a jazz chart), so here's a useful guide to what key you're playing in, since you now know how you can vary the feel you give by switching which note you resolve on.

Every single key you play in will have A B C D E F and G, but some flatted or sharped, but only one or the other: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_scale#Scales_with_sharp_key_signatures

So when you play a C# major scale the 7th note is B# instead of C.

Counting the number of sharps or flats in the key signature should automatically tell you which major key it is.

[uhhhhhhdave]

One of the most helpful things that I've found is that you need to be able to read musical notation. (Such as the notes on the staff, treble and bass clef)
Because once you can read that, anyone would be able to hand you a piece of music, and if you could play it.
Which is good.

[Rob]

Learn the scales first, in all positions if you could.

I'm gonna quote this because I think it's way more important than learning songs. I play cello and I was trained for the first year almost entirely on scales. We didn't touch anything else.

Now I can pretty much play anything by ear, invent music ideas on the fly, just because I know where everything is.

Guitar's kind of the same way. I have a friend who can play a dozen songs beautifully, but he can't read or create music because he only memorized particular progressions and chords, instead of mapping everything out for himself first. You can paint yourself in a corner if you learn the wrong stuff first.

[innerearth]

I've had a bunch of teachers before I went to uni, but they all emphasized playing technique rather than theory for some reason. As a result I have vague recollections of keys, "tone tone semitone tone..." and stuff like that but I really have no idea.

The reason they only taught technique is because that’s what guitar classes teach outside of a real music program IE at a University or performing arts school. If you want to learn theory, take the music 101 class (beginning theory) at a university. It will be a lot easer than trying to just learn it from a book. They will have you writing 3 and 4 part harmony by the end of the class, which is great for understanding chord structure. A big part of improvisation and composition for any kind of music.

[Jas[o]n]

Play the piano. The guitar is like six individual pianos. Learn scales, intervals, etc. on the piano first (which shouldn't take long at all esp. if you've been playing for about 8 years) and then transfer that to the guitar. Notation is universal and can be transfered to any instrument. Of course, you don't HAVE to use the piano but it does give you a good jump start as you're learning things from a different perspective.

[MikeyTuck]

There's this book on Amazon.com, it's all about music theory associated with the guitar, but it's more than scales and stuff it's really useful for the kind of knowledge you're looking for. I don't have it on me at the moment, but if you search Music Theory and guitar or something I'm sure it'll come up. It has a black and brownish red cover.

[cabhats]

I'm gonna quote this because I think it's way more important than learning songs. I play cello and I was trained for the first year almost entirely on scales. We didn't touch anything else.

A year learning scales...? S'pose that's one way to learn the notes.
Also when you say 'positions' what exactly does that mean. Is that just where on the fretboard the scale is played?

If you want to learn theory, take the music 101 class (beginning theory) at a university

I was actually looking for an extra paper to make up some credits this semester... Ah well, I'll see what next semester lines up for me. That is, if my Uni hasn't cut all of the arts papers like they were trying to...

Play the piano. The guitar is like six individual pianos.

Well I could try persuade a friend to let me have one of his that he doesn't use that often. I played piano when I was little, but I didn't get further than learning the notes and playing a few simple tunes. It would help a lot with the intervals/scales, but not so much with the learning the notes on guitar frets...

There's this book on Amazon.com...
I will have a look shortly.

[drunkchuck]

A year learning scales...? S'pose that's one way to learn the notes.
Also when you say 'positions' what exactly does that mean. Is that just where on the fretboard the scale is played?

Yes and no. Learning all the positions of a scale will enable you to play that scale from anywhere on the guitar. For example, the Pentatonic scale has 5 notes, and therefore 5 positions. In an A minor pentatonic scale, you should know how to play the scale in 2 notes per string starting on these notes (all on the 6th string): 5th fret, 8th fret, 10th fret, 12th fret, and 15th fret. Then the positions will repeat; the 17th fret is a full octave above the 5th.

I find that the easiest positions to play in at first are the 1st and 4th ones (in minor pentatonic). Learn all the positions well enough and you will be able to go to any note, anywhere on the guitar, in any key, and know exactly where you can go from there and still make sense musically.

[street_of_boredom]

I I've had a bunch of teachers before I went to uni, but they all emphasized playing technique rather than theory for some reason.


Maybe you should have listened to them playing techninque is way more important than theory because theory starts having little concern on your playing for about the 5th year your studying music. Technique is the most vital thing of all and take it easy learning it cause if you learn it wrong you might never be able to get it right.

P.S.:Holliday in Cambodia fuckin rocks!

[cabhats]

Maybe you should have listened to them playing techninque is way more important than theory because theory starts having little concern on your playing for about the 5th year your studying music. Technique is the most vital thing of all and take it easy learning it cause if you learn it wrong you might never be able to get it right.
Ehh? Who said I didn't listen to them? I've been taught technique for the whole time, and doing the same thing over and over again (albeit from a slightly different point of view) gets really boring if it's not even difficult.
And technique is an individual thing no? At least, thats what I figure after being taught slightly different techniques by different people, who all emphasized different points.

[Rob]

A year learning scales...? S'pose that's one way to learn the notes.

You can learn them in a week, it's more about muscle memory and making the whole instrument second nature rather than a given song.

[CnGy]

I remember in my Suzuki lesson they'd make us do scales for like the first ten minutes of every lesson.

Fuck I hated lessons. I'm so glad I don't need them anymore.

[MusicalIdiot]

Musician should already know the modes and scales in every key. Now if you do have that knowledge, what you should be working on—which is much harder in my opinion—is recognition of these scales by sound (ear training). In fact, if you don't have perfect pitch, work on a really good relative pitch. Everything else such as knowing how to switch modes, improvising with scales, etc. is really easy memorization.

Just by listening, try to figure out what key this song is in and try to figure out melody in the first four bars:
Tennesse Waltz (http://carouselstore.com/music/Zelinsky02Track01.mp3)
Also, it's a good idea to learn piano since it's the most visual of the instruments.

[innerearth]

Musician should already know the modes and scales in every key. Now if you do have that knowledge, what you should be working on—which is much harder in my opinion—is recognition of these scales by sound (ear training). In fact, if you don't have perfect pitch, work on a really good relative pitch. Everything else such as knowing how to switch modes, improvising with scales, etc. is really easy memorization.

Just by listening, try to figure out what key this song is in and try to figure out melody in the first four bars:
Tennesse Waltz (http://carouselstore.com/music/Zelinsky02Track01.mp3)
Also, it's a good idea to learn piano since it's the most visual of the instruments.

Wow he said he wanted to start learning music theory. He might want to learn what a "Key" is before he starts learning his scales in all of them. Knowing your scales and modes is great, ( in fact if your just doing music as a hobby and you know your modes your ahead of the pack)but learning music theory doesn’t start with that stuff. Your not gunna go to a theory class and start with the circle of fifths.

I wouldn’t worry about learning specific things. Take a Class and they should send you in the right direction.

[allizdog]

Guitar's kind of the same way. I have a friend who can play a dozen songs beautifully, but he can't read or create music because he only memorized particular progressions and chords, instead of mapping everything out for himself first. You can paint yourself in a corner if you learn the wrong stuff first.

I taught myself how to play the guitar through playing different songs, it actually does help especially if you've got a strong musical background.

Also, by learning different songs you can identify (or learn) different scales used by the artists and improvise from there. At least that's how I do it.

My primary instrument was the electric keyboard and I was first taught blues and soul then later changed institutes to learn Oriental/Middle Eastern music, Arabic scales are shit, especially with those annoying pitch increments.

[cabhats]

I taught myself how to play the guitar through playing different songs, it actually does help especially if you've got a strong musical background.

Also, by learning different songs you can identify (or learn) different scales used by the artists and improvise from there. At least that's how I do it.

My primary instrument was the electric keyboard and I was first taught blues and soul then later changed institutes to learn Oriental/Middle Eastern music, Arabic scales are shit, especially with those annoying pitch increments.

Well yeah, that's kinda how I started getting into it. However I seem to be lacking the musical background you speak of.
Although I have started trying to figure out scales and keys of a couple of simple songs I've learned.

Oh, and just in case I haven't thanked anyone for their input; Thank you! This has actually helped me a lot more than I thought it would.

[uplink3r]

First, learn modes/scale names, and chord names, the learn the other basic stuff you need to know, but then MAKE SURE you cover the circle of fifths and some basic counterpoint.

Have you ever noticed that most smooth/natural melodies you come up with in your head have chord tones on the 1st and 3rd beats? Chord tones are 1st 3rd and 5th (and sometimes 7th) notes of the scale (this 1/3/5/7 thing applies loosely to more complex chords like 9s, but not sus2s). If the note isn't a chord tone, ie. if the melody is a D and it's a C major chord (D is the second), you can treat that C chord with a D in the melody like a C add 9 chord, and theory-wise it's probably best to do so.

In the same way, chords naturally move to either a similiar chord (called a substitution), or a 4th/5th (a 5th down, is a 4th). For the most part, this all has to do with the circle of 5ths (the way chords naturally go). Also, chords move up/down in steps often. however, the best way to learn about chord progressions is to study chords you already know. You'll begin to recognize common patterns.

[Jiveturkey]

...

Something that may help:

Let's use C major

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C--simple, but when you riff off of a major scale, it sounds a tad too cheesy and optimistic, eh?

However, play the same scale from the 2nd note (D to D) and you get a Dorian scale: D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D. It's the same, but the new outlook gives it a jazzier/funkier feel (In my opinion).

From the third it's a Phrygian scale: E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E. I associate the Phrygian scale with metal.

From the fourth (F) it's Lydian, which sounds like a mix between major and minor.

From the fifth (G) it's Mixolydian, a jazzy and optimistic feel.

From the sixth (A) it's an Aeolian scale (Minor scale).

Lastly, from the 7th (B) it's a Locrian scale, which sounds diminished and doesn't really resolve itself.

Although you're just playing a C-Major scale, looking at it seven different ways can really help you improvise in the style you need to.

This isn't bad, but I like to think I know my share of theory so I will expand

The modes of the C-Major Scale are all obviously derived from C Major. I like to think of them all as C Major scales, just starting in a different spot. However the modal technique like this is good to analyze chords and progressions with so lets work with it

First off would be C Ionian (C D E F G A B C) This is a major scale with no alterations ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8) The parent chord of this would be any C major chord (Cmaj7 Cmaj9 Cmaj13 or just plain Cmaj

Now we have D Dorian. (D E F G A B C D) As you can see we are just going D to D in the C major scale. When taken from the D we see this scale as minor due to its flattened third (The relationship of D to F) We spell this scale 1 2 flat3 4 5 6 flat7 8. The parent chord of this Scale would be a D minor chord of any type (min7 min9 etc)

Now we have E Phrygian (E F G A B C D E) Again, this is just E to E in the C major scale. When we take it from the E we see this as a minor scale as well due to the flat three (The relationship of E to G) We spell this scale 1 flat2 flat3 4 5 flat6 flat7 8. Our parent chord would be any type of minor chord as well as chords containing flatted 2's (9's) or 6's (13's) due to those notes in the scale although generally some type of altered or symmetrical scale will be used in that situation.

Moving on we have have F Lydian (F G A B C D E F) F to F in the C major scale we see this as a major scale due to the natural third (The F and A). This scale is spelled 1 2 3 sharp4 5 6 7 8 and the parent chord would be any major chord and also major chords containing a #11 though again symmetrical scales would be more common.

G Mixolydian (G A B C D E F G) This is an interesting mode because we can see it in 2 ways. If we take it only to the 5 we see it as major but since it contains a flatted 7th we will normally call this a dominant mode. it is spelled 1 2 3 4 5 6 flat7 8. The parent chord for this would be anything dominant aka 7 9 13 etc. (Dominant means any chord containing a flat7 regardless of further extensions)

A Aeolian (A B C D E F G A) The natural minor scale. This is seen as minor again due to the flatted third. This mode is spelled 1 2 flat3 4 5 flat6 flat7 8
the parent chords would be any type of minor

B Locrian (B C D E F G A) This is another can be seen in 2 ways one. If we don't take into account the 7 then yes this is seen as diminished but if we do we see it as minor7flat5. This is spelled 1 flat2 flat3 4 flat5 flat6 flat7 8 and the parent chords would be either diminished or m7flat5 which is how I prefer to see it. Diminished scales are more useful for diminished chords.

Hope that helps.