Liberal or Conservative?

[notafan]

Which side do you lean towards?

I'm personally more conservative. I was raised [and am being raised] in a moderately wealthy family with two very hardworking parents, but with seven kids it is still hard to make ends meet, therefore I don't want the people that earn their money to be taxed a lot. Also, I see the government as something to keep us in line, not something that should take over our life, which, it seems, several liberals want the government to do.

I assume most of you are liberal (based on your posts in different discussions), but I'd like to know your stance on these sort of things.

PS: I know there was a political idea thread, but this thread has only two options. I don't care if you're a communist, if you are, state which side you lean toward as a communist.

EDIT: Oh, and feel free to discuss this year's election.

[Chardon07]

http://www.madrabbit.net/webrabbit/quizshow.html

I took the quiz and got 17. Smack dab in the middle of liberal and conservative.

But i agree with the quote " want peace, prepare for war"

[Laced Oysters]

Neither. I'll stay in my bubble of ignorance. I want no part in politics, I'll leave that to the people that actually want to voice their opinions.
I don't like being wrong.

[Niki]

I don't see why people feel the need to choose either side. Both sides have their positives and negatives, in my opinion.

[notafan]

Both sides have their positives and negatives, in my opinion.

That's why I'm asking which side you lean towards. Which has more positives? Even if there's only one better thing, it still makes that one better in your opinion.

[Cristo]

I'm a liberal conservative or conservative liberal, meaning I'm in the middle.

I support gay rights, a welfare state, socialised medicine, abortion, legalising marijuana/prostitution but I also want tighter and more stringent laws on immigration and harsher sentencing for crimes etc.

[Niki]

That's why I'm asking which side you lean towards. Which has more positives? Even if there's only one better thing, it still makes that one better in your opinion.

I'd rather not even attempt to find out, I'd hate to just be put into a category like that. I have my own views and if they're closer to one side than other that's fine, but I'm not going to consider myself one of them.

[notafan]

I'm a liberal conservative or conservative liberal, meaning I'm in the middle.

I support gay rights, a welfare state, socialised medicine, abortion, legalising marijuana/prostitution but I also want tighter and more stringent laws on immigration and harsher sentencing for crimes etc.

Conservative liberal would make more sense, based on that information.

[notafan]

I'd rather not even attempt to find out, I'd hate to just be put into a category like that. I have my own views and if they're closer to one side than other that's fine, but I'm not going to consider myself one of them.

Sounds good, love you<3

[Cristo]

Conservative liberal would make more sense, based on that information.

Yeah true.

I want the best of both worlds, why isn't that possible?

I think I'd make an amazing President. I'd appeal to both sides, even though there'd be some on each side who disagreed with me.

[jewishjosh]

I think I'd make an amazing President. I'd appeal to both sides, even though there'd be some on each side who disagreed with me.
People like you are the least electable and for that reason often make terrible presidents. In practice of course.

I try not to place myself on the political spectrum for reasons mentioned above by others, but if you force me to identify myself with one group or the other, in my heart I'm a pureblood liberal.

[Alcoholic]

I, on the other hand, am a die-hard conservative. Yes, I realize I'm fantastically outnumbered!

[Jewy]

I always have and always will support the greatest American President, George W. Bush. I believe everything he tells me. So I guess I am a die hard conservative.

[Tweek]

I believe in both socialist and civil libertarian ideals, so in other words a Libertarian Socialist.
Obviously left leaning.

[junglebunny]

I'm a Commu-Anarchist.

[Dodger]

I'm pretty fucking liberal, I believe in socialized medicine, redistribution of wealth, harsh regulations of corporations (I truly believe they're responsible for most the current problems), environmental awareness, welfare programs, and strict separation of church and state. I also find it useless to attempt to control morales, since everyone has different ones, so I believe marijuana should be legalized.

I find it hypocritical that conservatives say they want a small government yet they're begging for abortion and gay marriage to be illegal.

The only "conservative" part in me is that I truly believe that government should be kept out of personal matters so I support gay rights, abortion, and am against anti-smoking laws and against gun control (though somewhat regulated).


I think I'd make an amazing President. I'd appeal to both sides, even though there'd be some on each side who disagreed with me.

Maybe, if it wasn't for your extreme lack of charisma and likability. Also I think I'd make a great president because I have all the same values that I want in a person.

[junglebunny]

Plus gay people can't be President.

[John Travolta]

I think I'd make an amazing President. I'd appeal to both sides, even though there'd be some on each side who disagreed with me.

You would make a horrible president. You're of average intelligence and by the tone of your posts you have no concept of politics and the things that are going on around you.

I'm liberal FYI.

[Niki]

You would make a horrible president. You're of average intelligence and by the tone of your posts you have no concept of politics and the things that are going on around you.

I'm liberal FYI.

So he's pretty much George Bush?

EDIT: Not trying to be funny, either. That comes pretty damn close to describing Bush.

[The Fetus]

I consider myself an independent, but I lean more on the side of liberal. I'm not a hippie, or some indie-rock beatnick, but I am against abortion, which is a conservative view, I guess.

[HappyPalooza]

I don't associate my views with a political side, I just associate it with common sense. Partially because it seems if you're liberal, you must hate Bush and love gays or if you're conservative, you must be a religious nut and love Bush and I don't feel like getting grouped with a side.

[Mr. Crow]

Generally, I'm a social liberal and a fiscal conservative, but I'm perfectly fine with flip-flopping on issues when it makes sense (in other words, I have a functioning brain).

[green rubber bands]

Neither. I'll stay in my bubble of ignorance.

How's that working?


I consider myself an Orwellian Socialist, meaning strict regulation of both corporations and government, coupled with mostly traditional socialist views.

[Intestiny Destiny]

Where would a fascist fit on this scale? :heil:

[notafan]

I find it hypocritical that conservatives say they want a small government yet they're begging for abortion and gay marriage to be illegal.


We don't see abortion as personal business, we see it as murder, and murder happens to be illegal. Making laws against abortion isn't going in people's personal business (and making the government larger), it's enforcing laws and keeping us in line, which (as I stated earlier) is what the government should be there for.

But I don't really care about gay marriage, because it doesn't really affect me. It would bug me, though, because marriage is a term from the bible, and the bible intends men and women together. But, in the end, I could live my whole life with gay marriage being legal, and my life would basically be the same, so i'm not begging for it to be illegal.

[Niki]

We don't see abortion as personal business, we see it as murder, and murder happens to be illegal. Making laws against abortion isn't going in people's personal business (and making the government larger), it's enforcing laws and keeping us in line, which (as I stated earlier) is what the government should be there for.

But I don't really care about gay marriage, because it doesn't really affect me. It would bug me, though, because marriage is a term from the bible, and the bible intends men and women together. But, in the end, I could live my whole life with gay marriage being legal, and my life would basically be the same, so i'm not begging for it to be illegal.

Okay so I don't understand that all. You're saying you're not TOO against gay marriage because it wouldn't affect your life. If that's true, how can you have a problem with abortion? That's not affecting your life a great deal either. I'm pretty sure some pregnancies getting terminated won't drastically alter the course of your life.

[jewishjosh]

We don't see abortion as personal business, we see it as murder, and murder happens to be illegal. Making laws against abortion isn't going in people's personal business (and making the government larger), it's enforcing laws and keeping us in line, which (as I stated earlier) is what the government should be there for.
That's an ethical issue, not a political one. Keep the bible out of this.

[Akvod]

That's why I'm asking which side you lean towards. Which has more positives? Even if there's only one better thing, it still makes that one better in your opinion.

Can't you have the positives of one group and have the positives of another? Why must we blindly follow every opinion of a group?

[Tweek]

I believe the government should only operate to regulate business in an attempt to achieve economic goals in the interests of the people. Nothing more.

[notafan]

That's an ethical issue, not a political one. Keep the bible out of this.

Yeah, because christianity is the only religion that is against killing? Wow, you're really stupid.

Okay so I don't understand that all. You're saying you're not TOO against gay marriage because it wouldn't affect your life. If that's true, how can you have a problem with abortion? That's not affecting your life a great deal either. I'm pretty sure some pregnancies getting terminated won't drastically alter the course of your life.

Yeah, you're right. I guess I just feel stronger about abortion than I do gay marriage. I should've said that in the first place.

Can't you have the positives of one group and have the positives of another? Why must we blindly follow every opinion of a group?

You don't have to, I'm just saying for the purpose of the thread.

[whangadude]

I'm socialy Liberal but nationaly Conservative.

I agree with having no laws against gay rights, abortion, marijuana, BZP and other "harmless" party pills (even though i personally dont do them), polygomy (infact governments should have nothing to say about marriage), freedom of religion.

But I think (in NZ) we should get a bigger army/navy/airforce to prepare for any change of world powers and unexpected events (I dont wanna be taken over by China once the US gets nuked by Iran or other possible events that could occur over the next couple of decades changing the balance of power forever), and tax breaks for big buisnesses, tougher sentinces for violent crime, murder, rape and the other truely criminal crimes.

Also some of the Greeny ways, Renewable energy, carbon trading etc, but at the same time I think Genetic Enginaring can save the environment in the end, and nuklear power is the safest and best energy source we have.

[Akvod]

You don't have to, I'm just saying for the purpose of the thread.

Well then wouldn't it instantly be better to go with liberal? As least if you're liberal you have the option of being able to change the current state of things, while conservatives are bound to keep the world as it is... and the world constantly changes and we must continue to keep making strides in all aspects of the world.

[green rubber bands]

....and tax breaks for big buisnesses...

Why in the world would BIG business need tax breaks?

[notafan]

Well then wouldn't it instantly be better to go with liberal? As least if you're liberal you have the option of being able to change the current state of things, while conservatives are bound to keep the world as it is... and the world constantly changes and we must continue to keep making strides in all aspects of the world.

Not all conservatives are George Bush, I'm not looking to keep the world as it is...

[John Travolta]

It's not edgy to bash Bush anymore.
I believe the government should only operate to regulate business in an attempt to achieve economic goals in the interests of the people. Nothing more.

Socialism is pretty cool.

[notafan]

It's not edgy to bash Bush anymore.

I wasn't bashing him. I respect him...in some aspects...

[John Travolta]

He does clear brush pretty efficiently. But his stubborn attitude towards changing political ideas and issues is very disconcerting.

[notafan]

And he has moxy.

[green rubber bands]

And he has moxy.

Enough moxy to speak in a fake Texas accent.

[jewishjosh]

Yeah, because christianity is the only religion that is against killing? Wow, you're really stupid.
You completely missed my point. I meant all religions and religious motives. I only referenced the Bible specifically because you brought it up in the second part of your post, which I didn't quote. You seemed to be equating political conservatism with right-to-life, which is what I am disagreeing with.

Also, your use of the word "we" to describe yourself is unsettling. First you ask us to pick sides, then you portray it as if we're not allowed to have a difference of opinion within the side we choose.

[notafan]

You completely missed my point. I meant all religions and religious motives. I only referenced the Bible specifically because you brought it up in the second part of your post, which I didn't quote. You seemed to be equating political conservatism with right-to-life, which is what I am disagreeing with.

Also, your use of the word "we" to describe yourself is unsettling. First you ask us to pick sides, then you portray it as if we're not allowed to have a difference of opinion within the side we choose.

Sorry, you should've quoted my second part of the post. The fact that I brought up the bible is the reason why I didn't try to rub my opinion on gay marriage in your guys' faces, because I know several of you aren't Christian, so my opinion is very subject to flaws. But murder is against the law no matter how you feel.

By "we" I mean conservatives.

[jewishjosh]

Yes, murder is against the law, I'm sure we would all agree with that, but whether or not abortion is considered murder is a grey area that can't be answered simply.

By referring to conservatives as "we" you're insinuating that all political conservatives feel the same way about moral issues such as abortion, which is not true. That's my problem with your phrasing.

[Akvod]

Not all conservatives are George Bush, I'm not looking to keep the world as it is...

But I thought we had to choose between the two extremes?

[Laced Oysters]

How's that working?


Pretty good, actually. It prevents that stick that plagues so many of you from entering my ass.

[notafan]

Yes, murder is against the law, I'm sure we would all agree with that, but whether or not abortion is considered murder is a grey area that can't be answered simply.

By referring to conservatives as "we" you're insinuating that all political conservatives feel the same way about moral issues such as abortion, which is not true. That's my problem with your phrasing.

Yeah you're right, and I guess I'm gonna try and keep this from becoming an abortion thread.

And I'll rephrase my "we"s to "I"s, just for you baby.

[Mr. Crow]

He does clear brush pretty efficiently.

That's an interesting way to put taking advantage of a national tragedy as a means of sending military troops into an nonthreatening country comprised 60% of children and bombing the ever-loving fuck out of it, destroying our economy and sending us tumbling into a massive debt hitherto unseen in world history, moving America in the direction of a fascist state with legislation such as the U.S.A. P.A.T.R.I.O.T. act, sending our own citizens into secret government prisons and narrowing the definition of torture so said prisons can utilize "persuasive interrogation," and labeling any American who raises his or her voice against these injustices as unpatriotic.

Clear brush indeed.

[notafan]

That's an interesting way to put taking advantage of a national tragedy as a means of sending military troops into an nonthreatening country comprised 60% of children and bombing the ever-loving fuck out of it, destroying our economy and sending us tumbling into a massive debt hitherto unseen in world history, moving America in the direction of a fascist state with legislation such as the U.S.A. P.A.T.R.I.O.T. act, sending our own citizens into secret government prisons and narrowing the definition of torture so said prisons can utilize "persuasive interrogation," and labeling any American who raises his or her voice against these injustices as unpatriotic.

Clear brush indeed.

That's an interesting way to put clear brushing.

[Mr. Crow]

That's an interesting way to put clear brushing.

I'm reasonably sure he meant it as a metaphor and not literally.

[notafan]

I'm reasonably sure he meant it as a metaphor and not literally.

I was joking, back on topic.

[TangerineOrange]

I'm fairly liberal, and have been interested in politics from a young age. How young? I wanted the DNC when I was 4, which was the year of the '92 election. Currently I'm the president of the College Democrats chapter at my university. My family is quite staunchly liberal, as well. This has certainly impacted my beliefs - I have no doubts about that. However, I don't just vote the party line. Although in an election, such as the presidential election, I'd most certainly vote with the Democratic party, for virtually anything else it doesn't matter to me. I've voted Republican numerous times for senators or any other representatives.

As for this election? I know who I want to win the nomination, but more than that, I just want a nominee to be chosen. It doesn't even have to be my top choice. I say this because I'm very concerned with this going on so long that the Democratic party becomes polarized between the two candidates (which in my mind, I already see happening). The sooner one is chosen, the faster the party can unite behind that person, and more importantly, stop giving McCain a free ride into the White House.

[Quadros]

I'm a liberal socialist, basically I believe in equality for everyone and the breakdown of the national system so that we can unite as one people, removing the disproportionate power enjoyed by corporations and governments by keeping us devided and hostile towards each other. I'm pro EU and anti globalisation. I also believe that corporations should be taxed far more, employment laws should be beefed up and borders should be open to everyone without a criminal record.

[Niki]

I'm a liberal socialist, basically I believe in equality for everyone and the breakdown of the national system so that we can unite as one people, removing the disproportionate power enjoyed by corporations and governments by keeping us devided and hostile towards each other. I'm pro EU and anti globalisation. I also believe that corporations should be taxed far more, employment laws should be beefed up and borders should be open to everyone without a criminal record.

I agree with most of that, but the "without a criminal record". If it's a serious crime like murder or rape then I agree, but if it's really minor stuff or it was a long time ago and the person hasn't done anything since then, the borders should be open for them too.

[Quadros]

well yeah, in which case border control is sill in effect, they get a descision on a case by case basis. I should have been more clear about that. If they've commited rape, murder, armed robbery, organised crime, drug dealing, fraud etc then they shouldn't be allowed in in my opinion though.

[CnGy]

Really I think we should have like no government.

Also we should tax the rich, they can afford it =|, you're not in the capital gap that I'm talking about. I'm sure (are you a multi million/billionaire?)

We need more money on defense and less on offense, if you know what I mean.

more space exploration, more science, more research.

More freedom.

[John Travolta]

Really I think we should have like no government.

Also we should tax the rich, they can afford it =|, you're not in the capital gap that I'm talking about. I'm sure (are you a multi million/billionaire?)

We need more money on defense and less on offense, if you know what I mean.

more space exploration, more science, more research.

More freedom.

That's borderline Marxism.
I'm reasonably sure he meant it as a metaphor and not literally.
No, I meant it in a literal sense.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/08/images/20020809-1_ranch3-515h.jpg

[notafan]

Also we should tax the rich, they can afford it =|, you're not in the capital gap that I'm talking about. I'm sure (are you a multi million/billionaire?)


Most liberal candidates for various spots in the government consider rich 150,000 a year or more.

[prf007]

You would make a horrible president. You're of average intelligence and by the tone of your posts you have no concept of politics and the things that are going on around you.

I'm liberal FYI.

It's not edgy to bash Bush anymore.


Socialism is pretty cool.

Obviously you don't grasp politics well either. You're just another one of those liberal kids, I could have guessed it by reading your last post without you telling me you're a liberal in your first post, that finds themselves fashionable and conceited in their mediocre intellectual abilities because they're siding with the antithesis of capitalism. To put it simply, you're a fucking tool. Here's why:

I doubt you know what socialism is. Essentially it's a government that is dictated evenly by all members of the community as everyone works together for the common good of everyone else. That one sentence can sum up why socialism is bullshit. It goes against human nature. Socialist governments can only work if everyone is equal and numb to greed. So lets specifically analyze key components of human nature and how they conflict with socialism, shall we?

1. What proof is there that everyone is equal? You cannot prove equality and humans generally seek superiority in order to survive as a basic instinct.
2. If I lived in a socialist country and I worked ten times harder than my neighbor and received the same reward, because we're equal and it's for the greater good, I would revolt and so would a lot of other people who had half a brain.
3. Assholes. When someone realizes that people are so naive to believe that everyone is working for the common goal, they will manipulate the people and rise into a seat of power, that's not so equal is it?

Those are the essential reasons that socialism will never work. Sure you might say something like: "Well what if everyone truly is working for the greater good and no one is greedy? It would be a perfect society." That's what we call a utopia, which is defined as any visionary system of political or social perfection.

Utopia is Greek. It literally means "no place". Meaning it's an impossibility.

Sorry if I ranted a bit and got a little personal, I just get a little worked up when people think such a foolish concept is a better government.

Anyways, I'm a Republican, conservative and liberal are silly terms coined by the media. They're not really definable so I don't think people should really align themselves as either.

[jewishjosh]

Since this thread is 100% semantics, I'll continue down that road.

Anyways, I'm a Republican, conservative and liberal are silly terms coined by the media. They're not really definable so I don't think people should really align themselves as either.

I beg to differ. Republican and Democrat are "silly terms" and conservative and liberal are more descriptive. The Republican Party does not stand specifically for a republic, and the Democratic Party is not unique in that it supports democracy. They are labels unique to American politics, whereas conservative and liberal, while a bit more abstract, encompass the politics of the whole world: spawned out of the UK (Conservatives; Lib Dems), countries like Canada have parties by the name of Liberal and Conservative, and almost every other democracy in the world has parties that fit somewhat neatly along those lines. Describe a conservative party in Europe as Republican and you'll get a weird look. If you think they're just silly terms coined by the media, you need to pull your head out of your American ass.

[Alcoholic]

I believe that prf was dead-on with his explication on socialism. Though, I agree with Josh there as to which descriptor is more accurate, haha....anyway, I said it before, but I believe with a dffierent crowd in here - I am quite Republican, have been for freaking ever, and will continue to be....I tried thoughts of liberalism, I really did, but felt morally corrupt when I actually applied the thoughts to daily life, knowing the way genuine liberalism always unfolds.

ANYWAY, I think prf failed to mention another self-deriding piece of socialism....maybe he didn't miss it, maybe he just didn't break it down like I would have....
Here goes:

Socialism also always encourages the expulsion of individuals, due to its ideals, from the only and general class, to be the thumb on top of the masses.
So the governing form that promotes equality and broad equity without compromise actually sits a leader on top. It's almost like they feel that in order to ensure true-form socialism, they need a guide, but in doing so......defeat the entire purpose.

Hell......Nazism anybody?

[The Fetus]

Wow! Here are my opinions!

(Most of these I am regarding toward problems in America, by the way.)

-Extinction of corporations. They suck the blood out of anything they can get their fucking greedy hands on. They don't care about you, they just care about making money. What's five kids dying of starvation if I can sell the pair of pants they made half-way around the world for $240? They brand everything and take, take, take. Slowly, but surely, we need to get rid of them. I mean, we can't just take 'em all down at once. Currently, the world's pitiful economy needs them. My mother, a regular shopper of Wal-Mart, refused to buy me something at a pawnshop. She claimed that it takes from the poor. Oh! Pawnshops take from the poor so they can find junk they don't need and sell it to put food in their mouths, while Wal-Mart has broken every child-labor law imaginable, shuts down family owned, small businesses and discriminates against the handicap, women, and racial minorities. Makes sense mom, makes perfect sense.

-Legalization of marijuana. Far too many people are rotting in jail and even being shot over a plant. Crime will drop greatly when they are out of the hands of gangs to sell to people, and not to mention we can tax it. And of course many of you will say, "But there are millions of drunk drivers across America, we don't need one million more potheads driving!" Yes, this is true. However, standard issues while driving under the influence of marijuana should be harsher than driving under the influence of alcohol. Tobacco laws should apply to marijuana as well, if its legalization, it should be used in designated areas. (i.e. restuarants, homes, social gatherings)

-Less abortion, make The Pill cheaper. Here is a fairly conservative view that I withhold. Yes, women get raped. Yes, women should have a right if they want to have a child or not. Yes, overpopulation is a serious problem. I am for the right of a woman to choose want goes into her body and what comes out. I am against killing an unborn child. I see where the positive views on abortion are. And I really may sound awkward to say this but... Either way you look at it... You're still killing a baby... Condoms, birth control pills, and other ways of keeping another baby in this world should be easier to get a hold of than killing it.

-Less sports in school. How about something more creative that'll get you into college? I loathe all sports. I severly dislike them period. I don't hate all people who play sports, but many of them don't seem to give me a good vibe. Sports are uncreative and competitive on young minds. "What could be better than two sides on teams against one another?" Oh, that sounds great! Last time I checked, that was called "War". :indiff: Take them out of schools. It doesn't mean shit in the real world. How about more clubs and programs that'll let kids learn to communicate and get a career out of? You like sports, that's awesome! Just do it on your own time.

I am against Communism. Communism to me is everyone being a robot and the government babysits you. That is something I do not like.

I am against Fascism because... Well... It's fascism!

America should only fucking help countries WHO ASK FOR HELP. WWII seemed to be our last meaningful war. America needs to calm the fuck down. Help countries who ask. Disagree? Check out American involvement in Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Vietnam, El Salvador, Afghanistan, and Nicaragua on the internet or in a history book or two. Yes, we helped and saved all those countries. :drool:

American flags are fucking ugly. (Second ugliest being the UK's). Dear America, your flag is fucking meaningless to me! It's a fucking rag. And we're not even sure who exactly made it. We look up to it like it's a prophet. It's nothing. How about more state flags? If you're gonna be a blind patriot, how about be one in your state or city? Who's the patriot here, the ones waving little American flags and cheering "Support our troops! Support our troops!" or the people with the brains and the balls to point out and change what's fucked up?

[notafan]

Anyways, I'm a Republican, conservative and liberal are silly terms coined by the media. They're not really definable so I don't think people should really align themselves as either.

Liberal means someone who fights for liberty, and it meant that until Regan made it a bad word. But I concur with a lot of your post.

[John Travolta]

Obviously you don't grasp politics well either. You're just another one of those liberal kids, I could have guessed it by reading your last post without you telling me you're a liberal in your first post, that finds themselves fashionable and conceited in their mediocre intellectual abilities because they're siding with the antithesis of capitalism. To put it simply, you're a fucking tool. Here's why:

I doubt you know what socialism is. Essentially it's a government that is dictated evenly by all members of the community as everyone works together for the common good of everyone else. That one sentence can sum up why socialism is bullshit. It goes against human nature. Socialist governments can only work if everyone is equal and numb to greed. So lets specifically analyze key components of human nature and how they conflict with socialism, shall we?

1. What proof is there that everyone is equal? You cannot prove equality and humans generally seek superiority in order to survive as a basic instinct.
2. If I lived in a socialist country and I worked ten times harder than my neighbor and received the same reward, because we're equal and it's for the greater good, I would revolt and so would a lot of other people who had half a brain.
3. Assholes. When someone realizes that people are so naive to believe that everyone is working for the common goal, they will manipulate the people and rise into a seat of power, that's not so equal is it?

Those are the essential reasons that socialism will never work. Sure you might say something like: "Well what if everyone truly is working for the greater good and no one is greedy? It would be a perfect society." That's what we call a utopia, which is defined as any visionary system of political or social perfection.

Utopia is Greek. It literally means "no place". Meaning it's an impossibility.

Sorry if I ranted a bit and got a little personal, I just get a little worked up when people think such a foolish concept is a better government.

Anyways, I'm a Republican, conservative and liberal are silly terms coined by the media. They're not really definable so I don't think people should really align themselves as either.
Before you completely misinterpret my post any further you should reread it and tell me how you even attempt to label me as anti-capitalist, as you so elegantly(semester in a college class?) put it, without any indication. My comment was complete sarcasm if you didn't catch it. Do you often times find yourself hoping that a person will come by, mention socialism, and warrant the start of a debate that has nothing relevant to offer?

All you did was find a reason to bash socialism without any cause. Hell, you didn't even have a unique though, all you did was sum up every idea and opinion ever uttered about the flaws of socialism. For what reason, is completely above my head. Next time you try to start a debate with somebody who's not even stated an opinion on the subject, try more analysis and less summary.

[Ikin]

I consider myself a bit of both. I tend to look at both sides of an issue. I think it comes from the fact that my mom is Democratic and dad Republican.

http://www.madrabbit.net/webrabbit/quizshow.html


I took that quiz and got stuck on the first question :/

[Mr. Crow]

http://www.madrabbit.net/webrabbit/quizshow.html

I took the quiz and got 17. Smack dab in the middle of liberal and conservative.

But i agree with the quote " want peace, prepare for war"

That quiz is completely discredited by the fact that it rates Hillary Clinton as more liberal than Bill Clinton.

[Chardon07]

I think we should stiffen up the border control.

[CnGy]

That's borderline Marxism.

That's like a conspiracy theory thing right. Yeah. I think that capitalism is awesome, on the contrary. But I think the way we run is rather hodgepodge.

Also http://www.hemp4fuel.com/link.html

[prf007]

(semester in a college class?)My comment was complete sarcasm if you didn't catch it. Do you often times find yourself hoping that a person will come by, mention socialism, and warrant the start of a debate that has nothing relevant to offer?


Thanks, I'm still in high school though. If you were sarcastic earlier, you suck really bad at it. Sarcasm usually is ironic, in fact , it has to be because it's defined as "harsh or bitter derision or irony" and you said "Socialism is pretty cool", which is devoid any indication of sarcasm. Maybe if you said, "Socialism is pretty sweet, look how it worked out for the U.S.S.R" I would haver literally "lol'd" to myself because you took a stab at socialist forms of government, clearly what I'm all about.

That last sentence was sarcasm, just so you know.

P.S. I never wanted a debate, because it's pretty one sided, I just wanted to bash you for being a moron. I guess anyone can just cover their ass by saying they were being sarcastic. I'm off for school, toodles.

[John Travolta]

I'm pretty sure you not getting the sarcasm means that you suck really bad at reading it. Lurk more because every other post I make is sarcastic and everybody seems to get it but you.

[Cristo]

I like the fact that what people focused on was my apparent "lack of charisma" and "average intellect" (bahaha), rather than the policies I supported or what I stand for and believe in.

It's nice to see, however, that no-one commented on the fact I'm so mixed and/or said that it isn't possible because I meet that a lot when I speak to friends etc. about it.

[Jiggz]

I like the fact that what people focused on was my apparent "lack of charisma" and "average intellect" (bahaha), rather than the policies I supported or what I stand for and believe in.

It's called argumentum ad hominem. It's used when one lacks valid premises from which to argue from. Yet he questions your intelligence? Laughable.

I would consider myself mostly liberal.

[The Fetus]

I think we should stiffen up the border control.

We're all people anway. Who needs countries?

[MJS413]

We're all people anway. Who needs countries?

Many people have different beliefs on how people should be ruled. Throughout history humans have always looked for a leader. Different leaders have different ideas about how they believe they should rule their people. When leaders disagree they may start wars. In a sense the idea of a country and following the leader is like a giant :band:

[notafan]

Many people have different beliefs on how people should be ruled. Throughout history humans have always looked for a leader. Different leaders have different ideas about how they believe they should rule their people. When leaders disagree they may start wars. In a sense the idea of a country and following the leader is like a giant :band:

I get what you're saying. But it'd be appreciated if you reworded it, because you sound like you're just spouting out facts.

[FallenMorgan]

I'm definately a Liberal. I'm a member of the Libertarian Party.

[Allen]

Both sides are wrong about pretty much everything.

[prf007]

I'm pretty sure you not getting the sarcasm means that you suck really bad at reading it. Lurk more because every other post I make is sarcastic and everybody seems to get it but you.

Obviously you don't get it, I defined it and your posts don't follow the definition so you can call it sarcasm, but it's not. I can say a cat isn't a cat but it still is a cat. Lurking is stupid, I don't give a fuck what else you post because I wasn't referring to any other of your posts except the ones in this thread you dolt.

[bigmac4845]

Wow! Here are my opinions!

(Most of these I am regarding toward problems in America, by the way.)

-Extinction of corporations. They suck the blood out of anything they can get their fucking greedy hands on. They don't care about you, they just care about making money. What's five kids dying of starvation if I can sell the pair of pants they made half-way around the world for $240? They brand everything and take, take, take. Slowly, but surely, we need to get rid of them. I mean, we can't just take 'em all down at once. Currently, the world's pitiful economy needs them. My mother, a regular shopper of Wal-Mart, refused to buy me something at a pawnshop. She claimed that it takes from the poor. Oh! Pawnshops take from the poor so they can find junk they don't need and sell it to put food in their mouths, while Wal-Mart has broken every child-labor law imaginable, shuts down family owned, small businesses and discriminates against the handicap, women, and racial minorities. Makes sense mom, makes perfect sense.


-Less sports in school. How about something more creative that'll get you into college? I loathe all sports. I severly dislike them period. I don't hate all people who play sports, but many of them don't seem to give me a good vibe. Sports are uncreative and competitive on young minds. "What could be better than two sides on teams against one another?" Oh, that sounds great! Last time I checked, that was called "War". :indiff: Take them out of schools. It doesn't mean shit in the real world. How about more clubs and programs that'll let kids learn to communicate and get a career out of? You like sports, that's awesome! Just do it on your own time.

I am against Communism. Communism to me is everyone being a robot and the government babysits you. That is something I do not like.

I am against Fascism because... Well... It's fascism!

America should only fucking help countries WHO ASK FOR HELP. WWII seemed to be our last meaningful war. America needs to calm the fuck down. Help countries who ask. Disagree? Check out American involvement in Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Vietnam, El Salvador, Afghanistan, and Nicaragua on the internet or in a history book or two. Yes, we helped and saved all those countries. :drool:



Ok your first point is completely Communist, you want corporations to be shut down because they make money, and god forbid a business do that right? Ok so lets say you do shut down corporations for making too much money all you are left with are small businesses, well at what point dose a small business become a large business and need to be shut down? when they make a profit? because according to you profit is bad and should be punished by shutting down the company.

Then your sports comment, if I'm reading this right, you want schools to ban sports because they mimic war. Well I've never been to war but I do plan on joining the military and if I am ever in a combat zone I will be sure to look out for footballs and dodgeballs. All sports do are provide a fun activity for kid to do after school and give them a sense of teamwork and dedication to something they love. Also you cant tell a school what clubs or after school activities it can have.

I also do believe Kuwait was an ally and asked for help when Iraq invaded them, and what about Korea didn't they ask for help when NK invaded? and then there is Israel who asks for stuff and we help. Also i wouldnt say are goal in Afghanistan was to help, it was to track down and kill those responsible for 9/11

[John Travolta]

Obviously you don't get it, I defined it and your posts don't follow the definition so you can call it sarcasm, but it's not. I can say a cat isn't a cat but it still is a cat. Lurking is stupid, I don't give a fuck what else you post because I wasn't referring to any other of your posts except the ones in this thread you dolt.
It seems like the only argument you have now is one of semantics.

I like the fact that what people focused on was my apparent "lack of charisma" and "average intellect" (bahaha), rather than the policies I supported or what I stand for and believe in.
Your lack of intellect is evident by the complete disregard of any useful syntax in the post describing your policies. You can have the most elegant and flawless policy to whatever issue but that won't mean anything if you can't describe them without sounding like an idiot. You won't be president if you're not a good(or at least above par) public speaker, and that seems to be a large flaw in your aspirations.
bahahaAnd you're humble to boot!(sarcasm, if the less capable users didn't catch it)

[HappyPalooza]

-Less sports in school. How about something more creative that'll get you into college? I loathe all sports. I severly dislike them period. I don't hate all people who play sports, but many of them don't seem to give me a good vibe. Sports are uncreative and competitive on young minds. "What could be better than two sides on teams against one another?" Oh, that sounds great! Last time I checked, that was called "War". :indiff: Take them out of schools. It doesn't mean shit in the real world. How about more clubs and programs that'll let kids learn to communicate and get a career out of? You like sports, that's awesome! Just do it on your own time.

Yes, and I dislike singing so take that out of schools as well. Seriously, how uncreative do you have to be to just read other people's writings in an already determined tone of voice? People who have fun doing things I don't like don't give me a good vibe. Take chorus out of schools. It doesn't mean shit in the real world.

Also, I'm not defending sports because I like playing them. I don't, but some people do and get this- You can sometimes perhaps get physical and social health from it.

Ok your first point is completely Communist, you want corporations to be shut down because they make money, and god forbid a business do that right? Ok so lets say you do shut down corporations for making too much money all you are left with are small businesses, well at what point dose a small business become a large business and need to be shut down? when they make a profit? because according to you profit is bad and should be punished by shutting down the company.

I also somewhat agree with this guy. I still don't understand the whole "Big Businesses like money, so shut them down!" There's a reason they're a big business. It's because they're more efficient than other companies that remain small business. And Fetus, just what the hell are you on about a shopping chain discriminating against handicapped and minorities?

:facts:: Occasionally businesses are founded to make money.

Thanks, I'm still in high school though. If you were sarcastic earlier, you suck really bad at it. Sarcasm usually is ironic, in fact , it has to be because it's defined as "harsh or bitter derision or irony" and you said "Socialism is pretty cool", which is devoid any indication of sarcasm.

Sarcasm doesn't have to be blunt, jackass.

[The Fetus]

Ok your first point is completely Communist, you want corporations to be shut down because they make money, and god forbid a business do that right? Ok so lets say you do shut down corporations for making too much money all you are left with are small businesses, well at what point dose a small business become a large business and need to be shut down? when they make a profit? because according to you profit is bad and should be punished by shutting down the company.
Why yes, their greedy claws deserve EVERYTHING that they now have. Sure, companies will get big if small businesses get up, but that doesn't mean current corporations deserve all their branding and commercialism.

Then your sports comment, if I'm reading this right, you want schools to ban sports because they mimic war. Well I've never been to war but I do plan on joining the military and if I am ever in a combat zone I will be sure to look out for footballs and dodgeballs. All sports do are provide a fun activity for kid to do after school and give them a sense of teamwork and dedication to something they love. Also you cant tell a school what clubs or after school activities it can have.
Woo! Woo! Here comes the clue train, dipshit. I said that sports and competing in sports is like war. I never said that it was. Sports have absolutely no place in public schools period. If you love them so much--which is great--then why do you have to depend on your local school to have a system that allows it? Complete dipshits go to college on scholarships for throwing footballs. Competition isn't healthy on young minds everyday. We need programs that can get kids careers. "OH WAIT FETUS! PEOPLE GET CAREERS OUT OF SPORTS!!!!" Why yes, that's true. That statistic is 1 in 22,000. I found that in a book right next to me. It is current and up to date, published in October. Oh shit, it doesn't have the statistic for people who work in computers, art, and science who become successful... Shit. Well I guess sports are the best, huh?!

I also do believe Kuwait was an ally and asked for help when Iraq invaded them, and what about Korea didn't they ask for help when NK invaded? and then there is Israel who asks for stuff and we help. Also i wouldnt say are goal in Afghanistan was to help, it was to track down and kill those responsible for 9/11

Hey ass for brains! Did I mention the Korean War? Hmm... Hang on lemme check my post... Let's see here... Nope! I didn't mention the Korean war, did I? Also, tardcake, maybe I was talking about Aftghanistan, say, before 9/11 (which is what I meant by looking in a history book) in around the mid to late 1980s and early 1990s? Oh no! We only attacked Aftghanistan after 2001! :goofy:

And of course you avoid all the other attacks on countries I mentioned. Even the ones less known about like El Salvador or Nicaragua. And another, I forgot to mention, was Chile.

Enjoy being used in the desert as a soldier in an all out fuck-up war that a puppet got hurtled into to save his dad's old obsession!

:hyuck:

Also, I love how you said I can't tell a school what it can and can't have. Oh gosh! You never mentioned that it was my opinion and forgot to mention that I just can't go and tell corporations and America to change their ways. Well, I guess I can change all the rest of what I said except the schools, right? :hmm:

[bigmac4845]

Why yes, their greedy claws deserve EVERYTHING that they now have. Sure, companies will get big if small businesses get up, but that doesn't mean current corporations deserve all their branding and commercialism.


Woo! Woo! Here comes the clue train, dipshit. I said that sports and competing in sports is like war. I never said that it was. Sports have absolutely no place in public schools period. If you love them so much--which is great--then why do you have to depend on your local school to have a system that allows it? Complete dipshits go to college on scholarships for throwing footballs. Competition isn't healthy on young minds everyday.



Hey ass for brains! Did I mention the Korean War? Hmm... Hang on lemme check my post... Let's see here... Nope! I didn't mention the Korean war, did I? Also, tardcake, maybe I was talking about Aftghanistan, say, before 9/11 (which is what I meant by looking in a history book) in around the mid to late 1980s and early 1990s? Oh no! We only attacked Aftghanistan after 2001! :goofy:

Enjoy being used in the desert as a soldier in an all out fuck-up war that a puppet got hurtled into to save his dad's old obsession!

:hyuck:

Well I'm glad to see you took they high road and used 2ed grade insults.

Do you think that if the current Corporations went away there wouldn't be other "small businesses" waiting to take there place?

And I don't depend on my school for sports, I actuality play on a CLUB soccer team.

I merely mentioned Korea in an attempt to show that we have helped countries who have asked for it, we don't only go around sticking our nose in other peoples lives, take the Sudan for instance.

And I will enjoy being in a "all fuck-up war" because when my time comes to die and I'm laying on my death bed at least I will be able to say I at least tried to help the world for the better instead of just posting about what i want on the internet.

[The Fetus]

I'm glad you took the high road and used the 1st grade spelling/grammar. 2ed?

take the Sudan for instance.
...Sudan is a country... :indiff:
Well I'm glad to see you took they high road and used 2ed grade insults.

Yes, many small business would cherish the thought of taking a company that has taken many of their marketing away. Maybe that's why small businesses complained and supported the making of this (http://www.walmartmovie.com/facts.php) film.

Great! Play soccer! But why can't everyone play on a CLUB sport? Why do we need it in school? See what I'm saying? No?... Nevermind.

And on the note of other country's bussiness. Do you really think that Bush would have the balls to actually start something in Darfur after all this negative attention he got from Iraq?

But of course, being the greatest country EVER, America has the money, manpower, weapons, or time to protect every single other country with a problem.

And what excuses can you give me for us being in those other countries?

Edit: OH GOD! I just love what you said about being in Iraq! Yes! You're most definitely helping the world with this current Persian/Iraqi genocide just so you and others can have a full tank of gas!

My dad was in the Vietnam War, and from what he's told me about it, he doesn't want that to be the last thing he remembers before he dies. I also know an Iraq Vet who would love nothing more than to forget he even once joined the army.

:gj: God bless you and you're service to our country!

And God bless America! America, and only America! Because America is the world.

:patriot:

[bigmac4845]

I'm glad you took the high road and used the 1st grade spelling/grammar.


...Sudan is a country... :indiff:


Yes, many small business would cherish the thought of taking a company that has taken many of their marketing away. Maybe that's why small businesses complained and supported the making of this (http://www.walmartmovie.com/facts.php) film.

Great! Play soccer! But why can't everyone play on a CLUB sport? Why do we need it in school? See what I'm saying? No?... Nevermind.

wow sorry for a typo?

Well with that logic why have any extra-curricular activities in schools since you can do them at other places. Fuck, why even have schools if I can learn in my house? see what I'm saying, of course not, you were the kid who got picked last in basketball and now hates sports.

[The Fetus]

And maybe I was picked last? Maybe we should let kids learn communication and have them all have fun without being excluded. Like art, theatre, or some other program that won't turn them into people who single out who they see are weak.

[HappyPalooza]

Don't you usually have to audition for drama? :indiff:

[The Fetus]

Yes, but kids aren't usually kicked out by other kids. Not everyone can get in everything. At least it's something creative and could give someone confidence and get into a career. Not to mention with drama you don't have to "accidently" drop the soap when you're with your team in the shower.

[bigmac4845]

And maybe I was picked last? Maybe we should let kids learn communication and have them all have fun without being excluded. Like art, theatre, or some other program that won't turn them into people who single out who they see are weak.

The funny thing about you is you want people to have no choice in what after school activity they FREELY participate in. In your first post listing what your opinions were you said you weren't a fascist yet a fascist is "characterized by a centralized autocratic state governed by a dictatorial head, stringent organization of the economy and society, and aggressive repression of opposition". yet all you want to do is tell people and business what they can and cant do. Ok so maybe you arn't a Fascist per say but you are in support of a totalitarian government.

Oh yea, everyone who plays sports is gay apparently but drama, thats the straightest thing in the world.

EDIT#2: Good for your dad and your friend who have served this country but I know many people who have been deployed to Iraq and honestly what I hear is mostly good things and that was from my cousin who was hit by IED's 3 times.

[The Fetus]

Well, corporations seem to be more totalitarian than what my views are. Real freedom scares the piss out of politicians becuase it means some responsibility. Corporations give and take, but behind curtains they take more so often. Politicians can't just go and shut corporations down. Neither can I. I'm not saying we need to do this or that, but corporations suck cities, people, and our economy dry.

Not to mention I don't even take drama. And it takes a hell of a lot more spirit and brains to do than pass a ball.

[bigmac4845]

Well, corporations seem to be more totalitarian than what my views are. Real freedom scares the piss out of politicians becuase it means some responsibility. Corporations give and take, but behind curtains they take more so often. Politicians can't just go and shut corporations down. Neither can I. I'm not saying we need to do this or that, but corporations suck cities, people, and our economy dry.

Not to mention I don't even take drama. And it takes a hell of a lot more spirit and brains to do than pass a ball.

Corporations HELP the economy, do you really think a mom and pop store can ship as much freight as UPS or FEDEX, can they provide as much telecommunication stuff as AT&T or Bell, can they buy/pump as much oil as Shell or Exxon, or make as much RX drugs as Pfizer's. With out corporations this world would be stuck in the dark ages as far as consumer goods and technology.

EDIT: Also it dosent scare the piss out of politicians it scares the piss out of you, it would mean people can do what THEY want with THEIR lives, be it, making a "evil corporation", playing sports, loving the country they live in, or what ever else you hate.

[CnGy]

Corporations just want to make money.

That's all.

It's really not that evil.

[HappyPalooza]

Corporations just want to make money.

That's all.

It's really not that evil.

But they sometimes fire people and that means they'll step on anyone to get their precious dollar.

[bigmac4845]

But they sometimes fire people and that means they'll step on anyone to get their precious dollar.

Why the hell would anyone go into business to lose money? Also maybe they need to fire people to pay there other workers.

[HappyPalooza]

Sarcasm, bigmac. Read my post on page 2.

[bigmac4845]

Sarcasm, bigmac. Read my post on page 2.

I thought it was sarcasm but I really couldn't tell. sorry.

[Gilligan]

First off, I'm in the military.
Where I'm from being a liberal means I'm not an ignorant tool bag who doesn't know how to think. And that I'm not a bigot. But I've seen a lot more than just my home town since then.
I know ignorance exists on both sides. The majority of people would go either way depending where they were raised and how. They get an idea in there head growing up and most often are stubborn for change even if proven wrong. So even people with liberal ideas in their head are conservative in that sense.
As far as war goes, I'm getting a lot of perspective on that I suppose. War is a crime against ourselves as conscious beings. However, a strong standing military is the only reason the world isn't under Nazi rule right now. Military is the back hand of any country. I hate it. I would rather problems to be solved through the eradication of ignorance than through force. But truth has its enemies. Blind faith and zealousness get in the way of personal growth and understanding. Whether it be in religious, political, or other moral/not-so-moral ideas matters not. People need to realize this and try to be less narrow minded. It's better to say that you don't know than to jump on some random bandwagon. Just remember, you can always think.

[jewishjosh]

I'm definately a Liberal. I'm a member of the Libertarian Party.
Hahaha.



Fetus - about sports:

I think that sports have a place in public schools. You are right that team sports can (but don't always) encourage unhealthy levels of competitiveness and social exclusion. However, physical activity is important to a healthy, balanced lifestyle and is as essential to young people as all the other things offered by public education, including theatre, arts, and, I suppose, education. There is no valid reason to say that exercise is any less beneficial to a balanced person than creativity. In an increasingly sedentary world where we have everything we need at our fingertips, exercise is more important than ever. (Cue the cliche about how kids play video games instead of pickup games of ball hockey after school.) You don't have to play a competitive team sport to get exercise - I was never a team sport guy because I was never inclined to be brutally competitive. I've always been a brain guy, in terms of both inclination and ability, but I totally support sports. Competition is healthy in reasonable doses as long as the priority is to have fun, regular exercise helps both the body and mind, and it encourages hard work, a value that is important in any career and even just in life. Schools need to go above and beyond PE and encourage a fun, positive attitude towards athletics so that kids will be enthusiastic about incorporating it into their lives.

However, I do agree that our sports culture is excessive. University scholarships for athletes who will remain professional athletes for the rest of their lives is ludicrous. (Merit-based scholarships for students from lower-income families who are looking to pursue a career in the field they study is an entirely different scenario.) For a few years I went to a private school with a very elitist, competitive attitude towards sports and much more emphasis on sports than they deserved, perfectly embodying your war metaphor. But the school made it mandatory to take part in an extracurricular physical activity, of which they offered a wide variety, and I think that that system is a great idea and I definitely benefitted from it. In the big picture, it is worth the money for the public school system to do something similar.

Edit - back on topic: Gilligan I'm glad you raised the point about how liberal literally means free-thinking, progressive, open to new ideas; conservative means closed-minded and old-fashioned. These intellectual definitions are quite different from the political definitions that the terms have adopted.

[The Fetus]

Corporations HELP the economy, do you really think a mom and pop store can ship as much freight as UPS or FEDEX, can they provide as much telecommunication stuff as AT&T or Bell, can they buy/pump as much oil as Shell or Exxon, or make as much RX drugs as Pfizer's. With out corporations this world would be stuck in the dark ages as far as consumer goods and technology.

EDIT: Also it dosent scare the piss out of politicians it scares the piss out of you, it would mean people can do what THEY want with THEIR lives, be it, making a "evil corporation", playing sports, loving the country they live in, or what ever else you hate.

Trust me, I love this country more than you probably do. I love it enough to fight the bandwagons you seem to love to jump on.

And I never said people should stop playing sports. Like I said "DO WHAT YOU WANT". I just keep my stance on saying that they do not belong in public schools.

[bigmac4845]

Trust me, I love this country more than you probably do. I love it enough to fight the bandwagons you seem to love to jump on.

And I never said people should stop playing sports. Like I said "DO WHAT YOU WANT". I just keep my stance on saying that they do not belong in public schools.

Yea I only love it enough to possibly die for it, you're right you clearly love it more for just saying I'm wrong on every single thing.

You're right you didn't say people should stop playing sports but you did say schools shouldn't have the choice to have any type of sport played at there school even though they aren't forcing anyone to play them. If you say "do what you want" then why do you want corporations to be shut down they're just doing what they want. right?

[CnGy]

Like the way I see it. You are either going to have the government praying on the people, or the people praying on the people.

I'd rather have it be the latter.

[The Fetus]

EDIT#2: Good for your dad and your friend who have served this country but I know many people who have been deployed to Iraq and honestly what I hear is mostly good things and that was from my cousin who was hit by IED's 3 times.

Yes, they most definitely helped fight for our country halfway across the globe in another country. :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure my dad would have rather died than go to that horrible fucking place.
Yea I only love it enough to possibly die for it, you're right you clearly love it more for just saying I'm wrong on every single thing.

You're right you didn't say people should stop playing sports but you did say schools shouldn't have the choice to have any type of sport played at there school even though they aren't forcing anyone to play them. If you say "do what you want" then why do you want corporations to be shut down they're just doing what they want. right?

Well, I may not have the ability to stop a group of people to drop a bag of babies off a cliff, but hell, I'll definitely say something!

[bigmac4845]

Yes, the most definitely helped fight for our country halfway across the globe in another country. :rolleyes:


Yea, i guess those guys who died on the beaches of Normandy or on Okinawa didnt fight for there country because it was half way across the globe.

[The Fetus]

Wow! Maybe that's why my first post said that America's last good war was WWII!

Not to mention the only reason America's enemies were fighting us were because we were in their country.

My dad and my friend would give up anything, including their pride, than to have a worthless fucking title saying that they're veterans who "fought for their country".

[bigmac4845]

Wow! Maybe that's why my first post said that America's last good war was WWII!

Please tell me what a good war is?

[CnGy]

There are no good wars, there are only necessary ones.


I don't see how anyone could see Iraq as necessary.

[The Fetus]

Please tell me what a good war is?

What I meant was "meaningful".

[bigmac4845]

There are no good wars, there are only necessary ones.


I don't see how anyone could see Iraq as necessary.

Absolutely, Iraq isnt necessary at all, however I know people who lost family over in Iraq and we cant just leave to have them been killed in vain.

EDIT: Really Korea wasn't "meaningful", gulf war 1 wasn't "meaningful" , Afghanistan isn't "meaningful"

[The Fetus]

No, I really don't think much of them did good to too many.

What vain did they die in? And how would you being there make their deaths meaningful being there? By what? Killing every terrorist?

[bigmac4845]

No, I really don't think much of them did good to too many.

Yea i guess your right. South Korea only has one of the best standards of living in south east Asia while NK has one of the worst. Kuwait is still free and not under the oppression of Saddam (not like it matters anymore) and Afghanistan is now free and the women don't get killed if they show there faces or talk to men. Yea they didn't do any good at all.

[The Fetus]

What did American troops being there change?

[bigmac4845]

In all of those wars American troops were/are the ones leading the fight, with out US troops in Korea it would have fallen earlier if MacArthur didn't invade inchan and relieve pussan. In Kuwait we were the main attack force providing most of the air cover and completely devastating the Iraqi tank brigades allowing US/UN troops to destroy the Iraqi troops. And in Afghanistan we are (along with Canada) the ones going out and destroying the Taliban. With out US troops there wouldn't be change.

[Mr. Crow]

Well, corporations seem to be more totalitarian than what my views are. Real freedom scares the piss out of politicians becuase it means some responsibility. Corporations give and take, but behind curtains they take more so often. Politicians can't just go and shut corporations down. Neither can I. I'm not saying we need to do this or that, but corporations suck cities, people, and our economy dry.

Never mind that corporations and big business fueled industry in the early 1900s, giving the United States a high standard of living and cementing it for quite a while as "the land of opportunity." Never mind that without corporations you would not have the luxuries that you so hypocritically enjoy at this very moment. No, corporations are all just black and evil.

[The Fetus]

In all of those wars American troops were/are the ones leading the fight, with out US troops in Korea it would have fallen earlier if MacArthur didn't invade inchan and relieve pussan. In Kuwait we were the main attack force providing most of the air cover and completely devastating the Iraqi tank brigades allowing US/UN troops to destroy the Iraqi troops. And in Afghanistan we are (along with Canada) the ones going out and destroying the Taliban. With out US troops there wouldn't be change.

And we have the business and the time to help out all these countries when homeless people in our country are dying every day, every hour from starvation?

[Kass]

I'm a strange mix between a socialist and a libertarian.
I'm so bipolar in my political views that I'm not even going to try to describe it.

[bigmac4845]

And we have the business and the time to help out all these countries when homeless people in our country are dying every day, every hour from starvation?


Don't try to act like the homeless in this country don't have the opportunity to have a better life, ever hear of welfare, homeless shelters, food banks, soup kitchens, unemployment checks. If they don't have a job they don't want one. We have the largest economy in the world, so why not help out others, spread the wealth. Instead of just helping those who don't want help here in America why not try to help those who don't have the opportunities as us over there

[SmallBrain]

in canada, liberal is real crap full of scamer, stealer and bullshiter so i say conservation

[HappyPalooza]

in canada, liberal is real crap full of scamer, stealer and bullshiter so i say conservation

Haha, your username is so fitting.

[Gilligan]

Bigmac, you have a naive view of our government. Your intentions are good but in reality it's more cynical. I can see you respect Marines a good deal. If you join when you're 18 I can imagine you being like most Marines and hating sailors (except coremen, "God bless the fucking Coremen."). Since we're on the topic of war I'll continue with that notion plus the defending our freedoms thing.
War is politics and politics is business.
The only fight for freedom in America right now is going on inside America between civilians.
All the military freedom fighting is mostly for the freedom of other countries. But freedom is hardly the case most of the time. American Government is only really focused on a country if there is a justifiable reason for it. And to government, human rights issues in third world countries isn't something that would really sway decision on the distribution of military presence. The military is not a charity (join the Peace Corps if you want to help people). Having a strong presence at the Panama Canal is however in the best interests of not just our economy but most of the West Hemisphere's.
The only reason Iraq was a big deal as a dictatorship was because it was powerful and influential. We were actually dependent upon a major export of the country. Now it's mostly just fixing a mess. There's not really a clear way out of the country in the near future that has America looking decent. The main reason of course being a religion for the most part. And the idea of establishing a firm democratic influence in a Middle East full of princes is too much of a blissful thought, for people who care, to just consider abandoning the opportunity with such haste.

[bigmac4845]

Bigmac, you have a naive view of our government. Your intentions are good but in reality it's more cynical. I can see you respect Marines a good deal. If you join when you're 18 I can imagine you being like most Marines and hating sailors (except coremen, "God bless the fucking Coremen."). Since we're on the topic of war I'll continue with that notion plus the defending our freedoms thing.
War is politics and politics is business.
The only fight for freedom in America right now is going on inside America between civilians.
All the military freedom fighting is mostly for the freedom of other countries. But freedom is hardly the case most of the time. American Government is only really focused on a country if there is a justifiable reason for it. And to government, human rights issues in third world countries isn't something that would really sway decision on the distribution of military presence. The military is not a charity (join the Peace Corps if you want to help people). Having a strong presence at the Panama Canal is however in the best interests of not just our economy but most of the West Hemisphere's.
The only reason Iraq was a big deal as a dictatorship was because it was powerful and influential. We were actually dependent upon a major export of the country. Now it's mostly just fixing a mess. There's not really a clear way out of the country in the near future that has America looking decent. The main reason of course being a religion for the most part. And the idea of establishing a firm democratic influence in a Middle East full of princes is too much of a blissful thought, for people who care, to just consider abandoning the opportunity with such haste.


Yea I'm actuality joining next year in 09 at they ripe old age of 17 and I will never hate someone who serves in another branch of the military, they are doing something most of the country doesn't want to do. Plus how can i hate the Navy when Marines are part of the Navy. And I'm not naive about our government but i hate seeing people say how horrible it is when in reality its filled with just a bunch of retards (I know, my parents work for the Gov. ive seen what goes on inside and its boring as fuck.) who cant do there jobs.

[Ikin]

Woo! Woo! Here comes the clue train, dipshit. I said that sports and competing in sports is like war. I never said that it was. Sports have absolutely no place in public schools period. If you love them so much--which is great--then why do you have to depend on your local school to have a system that allows it? Complete dipshits go to college on scholarships for throwing footballs. Competition isn't healthy on young minds everyday. We need programs that can get kids careers. "OH WAIT FETUS! PEOPLE GET CAREERS OUT OF SPORTS!!!!" Why yes, that's true. That statistic is 1 in 22,000. I found that in a book right next to me. It is current and up to date, published in October. Oh shit, it doesn't have the statistic for people who work in computers, art, and science who become successful... Shit. Well I guess sports are the best, huh?!


While it's true that sports can cause an unhealthy amount of competition, some levels of competition, I think, help prepare kids for the real world. In the real world, you're applying for a job along with other people; so you're basically competing with them for the job. Seems pretty useful to me.

Also, hardly any musicians get famous. Does this mean that music should be eliminated from school because it doesn't always lead to success in the real world?

[John Travolta]

Wow, bigmac and Fetus are completely ruining this thread. Neither of you know what you're talking about so stop arguing.

[The Fetus]

While it's true that sports can cause an unhealthy amount of competition, some levels of competition, I think, help prepare kids for the real world. In the real world, you're applying for a job along with other people; so you're basically competing with them for the job. Seems pretty useful to me.

Also, hardly any musicians get famous. Does this mean that music should be eliminated from school because it doesn't always lead to success in the real world?

No, like I said, something that teaches communication. Sure, music can get very competitive, but it's not the whole basis of it. Music, to me personally, seems to have had a brighter and deeper impact on people than sports.

[Cocktapus]

I think both can have a very profound impact, depending on the experience.

[bigmac4845]

Your absolutely right, back on topic. I am a Republican, I think people shouldn't get taxed for being successful and making money, after all wealth is created not taken, and last time i checked thats call Communism. How ever i dont agree on the moral things most republicans care about. I think gays should have the right to get married and I think abortion is fine I mean last time I checked this was America and people should be able to do what ever they want ( With in reason).

EDIT: This was directed at John Travolta

[The Fetus]

Never mind that corporations and big business fueled industry in the early 1900s, giving the United States a high standard of living and cementing it for quite a while as "the land of opportunity." Never mind that without corporations you would not have the luxuries that you so hypocritically enjoy at this very moment. No, corporations are all just black and evil.

I don't hate corporations just because their corporations. Big business ain't what I'm against. The problem with corporations is their dictatorial rule over the government and society.

[Ikin]

I don't hate corporations just because their corporations. Big business ain't what I'm against. The problem with corporations is their dictatorial rule over the government and society.

What's so dictatorial about making money?

[The Fetus]

It's not the making money part, it's the "brand and take everything we get our grubby hands on" part.

[Dodger]

What's so dictatorial about making money?

Maybe it's because politicians need to rely on big businesses to give them campaign money, and as a result wind up being in companies pockets. Therefore big businesses go on unregulated and screw over their consumers and employees for profits, which is why we're so hesistant to try out alternative fuels and Exxon-Mobil is recording record high revenue.

Essentially politicians make decisions making sure not to bite that hand that feeds them, so they listen to big business and do whatever they say. So we'll end up being governed by unelected CEOs and Boards of Directors instead of good leaders.

[HarlanAmbrose]

Liberalism! Wooh!

[Jiggz]

You can have the most elegant and flawless policy to whatever issue but that won't mean anything if you can't describe them without sounding like an idiot. You won't be president if you're not a good(or at least above par) public speaker, and that seems to be a large flaw in your aspirations. )

Lacking intellect and a clumsy public speaking record are attributes held by none other than your very own president. So although these characteristics are important, what really facilitates ones political ambitions are nepotism and corruption.

[Akvod]

I'm not in college yet, but I heard from a lot of Rutgers kids that there's a strong movement led by their professor to... maybe not get rid of sports completely, but to get rid of scholarships, or at least the massive amounts of money they spend to maintain it.

For e.g, I don't have exact figures, but imagine 3X more money being spent on a new football stadium than new supplies, and classrooms, etc. I don't think sports should take priority over education.

[junglebunny]

Hey Fetus just because you listen to Anti-Flag doesn't mean you have to be such a fucking pussy.

Lacking intellect and a clumsy public speaking record are attributes held by none other than your very own president.
EDIT: Yeah, but this is AMERICA!!! :salute:

[almightybob]

Still catching up, some of these replies are long. But as I read I noticed this:

You won't be president if you're not a good(or at least above par) public speaker

Do you not know Dubya? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ux3DKxxFoM)

[The Fetus]

Hey Fetus just because you listen to Anti-Flag doesn't mean you have to be such a fucking pussy.


I actually tried listening to Anti-Flag in the seventh grade and I hated it. I get most of this info and my opinions from my dad and books.

But I'm not saying music had no impact on my political and social views.

Just not some fake-punk band like Anti-Flag.
:barf:

[almightybob]

I'm glad you took the high road and used the 1st grade spelling/grammar.



Yes, many small business would cherish the thought...

And on the note of other country's bussiness.

:gj: God bless you and you're service to our country!


If you're going to call people on spelling and grammar, you'd better make damn sure your own post is word perfect.

[junglebunny]

I actually tried listening to Anti-Flag in the seventh grade and I hated it. I get most of this info and my opinions from my dad and books.

But I'm not saying music had no impact on my political and social views.

Just not some fake-punk band like Anti-Flag.
:barf:

Everything you said ITT seems forced and cliche as fuck.

[almightybob]

OK, finally caught up.

Mostly liberal views, need tougher sentencing for some serious crimes, pro some stuff, anti other stuff. Etc etc.

Fetus, if I'm honest you just sound bitter at not being picked at sports. There are many sports that aren't team-based, so you wouldn't be last chosen. You could do athletics, or golf or something. But I'm guessing you weren't good at them either.
It's a shame that your school didn't have any extra-curricular activities in things other than sports, like drama, music and the arts like you mentioned. But the solution is not to get rid of sports, but to introduce these alternatives.
If you didn't get what you want, the solution is to bring about change so that you do, not so that other people miss out as well.

There is nothing wrong with a business making money. A strong brand name is a result of pride in a successful business. If I created a great clothing company, for example, I'd be proud and I'd want people to see that.
The issue is when corporations exploit the poor in third world countries and grossly underpay them, or decide to dump toxic by-products in the nearest river rather than treat them. That is definitely wrong, but it is probably the exception rather than the rule.

Corporations are not all soulless megalomaniacs hell-bent on causing havoc and destruction in the pursuit of profits, wars are not always a fix-all solution from trigger-happy warmongers desperate for new territory, sports are not designed as theatres of ridicule for the unathletic kids. The world is not black and white, which you'll realise as you grow up.

[John Travolta]

Lacking intellect and a clumsy public speaking record are attributes held by none other than your very own president. So although these characteristics are important, what really facilitates ones political ambitions are nepotism and corruption.

Bush has an immense amount of personality. People voted for him because he had a blue collar aura. He was seen as an average Joe, and that's very appealing, he has charisma even if he can't spell it. Cristo, however looks like a complete faggot with manicured nails and I'm sure he's never done any type of real work in his entire life. He's the farthest thing from being an average Joe.

[The Fetus]

Everything you said ITT seems forced and cliche as fuck.
As if any of my views would actually become something in my lifetime in America. :rolleyes:

OK, finally caught up.


Fetus, if I'm honest you just sound bitter at not being picked at sports. There are many sports that aren't team-based, so you wouldn't be last chosen. You could do athletics, or golf or something. But I'm guessing you weren't good at them either.
It's a shame that your school didn't have any extra-curricular activities in things other than sports, like drama, music and the arts like you mentioned. But the solution is not to get rid of sports, but to introduce these alternatives.
If you didn't get what you want, the solution is to bring about change so that you do, not so that other people miss out as well.
Really? Because I played basketball for 3 years and baseball for one. I saw, in my personal opinion, that it just made kids more aggressive towards one another. I just never really saw why everyone blows a load over them. I'm not saying that kids shouldn't play sports. Do what you want. Really. I just see that they have no place in public schools.

There is nothing wrong with a business making money. A strong brand name is a result of pride in a successful business. If I created a great clothing company, for example, I'd be proud and I'd want people to see that.
The issue is when corporations exploit the poor in third world countries and grossly underpay them, or decide to dump toxic by-products in the nearest river rather than treat them. That is definitely wrong, but it is probably the exception rather than the rule.
I still don't see that as a reason how they can grab as many profits as they can. Not all corporations are bad, but a fuckload of them are. Employees at Wal-Mart are rejected health care and under payed, for example.

Oh, and thanks Dodger. I didn't even know about all that. At least someone's on my side. :shobon:

[Alcoholic]

Haha, Almighty, are you sure you lean towards the left wing? You sound far too logical and your ideas seem far too well thought out to be a Liberal =P

And Fetus, you say you hate corporate workings, don't mind big business, and support small business? Big business grew from something minute and tiny: little mom and pop stores, Ray Kroc starting McDonald's, Sam Walton creating *shudders* Wal-Mart.

Big businesses conglomerate, with the very purpose of promoting the well-being of their company, and in most cases, to make things more affordable, more available, and more accountable to the consumers.
Sure, there are a few folks who seek to do little more than line their own damned pockets, but for business' sake and geral ethics, these guys are not only few and far between, but no matter what you're doing, people like this will exist. Sad fact of the human condition, and completely unavoidable.

Anyway......the only thing, other than the self-serving, greedy bastards, that you could logically have a problem with, per your own words and common sense, is the transition from small company to a big business. And isn't that a bit ridiculous?

[The Fetus]

Big businesses conglomerate, with the very purpose of promoting the well-being of their company, and in most cases, to make things more affordable, more available, and more accountable to the consumers.
Sure, there are a few folks who seek to do little more than line their own damned pockets, but for business' sake and geral ethics, these guys are not only few and far between, but no matter what you're doing, people like this will exist. Sad fact of the human condition, and completely unavoidable.


A Wal-Mart Vice President even said this was the last thing that Sam Walton wanted Wal-Mart to be.

[notafan]

Lacking intellect and a clumsy public speaking record are attributes held by none other than your very own president. So although these characteristics are important, what really facilitates ones political ambitions are nepotism and corruption.

Everyone bases their views on Bush by what they see on TV(aka the liberal media). I've watched several speeches [in their entirety] of President Bush's and in most of them he speaks perfectly fine and sounds like a leader. Yes there are times where he has some funny mistakes, but they're not as common as people make them out to be.

[Alcoholic]

A Wal-Mart Vice President even said this was the last thing that Sam Walton wanted Wal-Mart to be.

But he still let it become that, though at the time he had the ownership rights. The way it sounds, the small type of commerce it began as just looks to be Walton's initial preference. Some people just like the small-business better.

Don't get me wrong, I love the little hole-in-the-wall stores. To me, they make the best food, and have the most unique goods. But these massive places still serve a huge purpose, and the point still stands, ya know?

[Alcoholic]

Along with Notafan....
Anybody can make verbal mistakes. It has nothing to do with intelligence.
One of my favorite psychology professors was absolutely brilliant - I mean 3 doctorates and at least 4 bachelor's degrees, and that is no exaggeration - as well as a genuinely nice fella.

He still mixed and confused words, and I gave him hell for it. We laughed. the times were good.

[jewishjosh]

There is nothing wrong with a business making money. A strong brand name is a result of pride in a successful business. If I created a great clothing company, for example, I'd be proud and I'd want people to see that.
There is no shame in success or fame, if you have earned it. I see the problem in the social attitude that comes with it, where kids won't buy a shirt unless it says Hollister. People idolize the successful and the famous: everyone wants to look like the hottest celebrity and wear the hottest brand names because they symoblize success and people want to look and feel successful.

Bush has an immense amount of personality. People voted for him because he had a blue collar aura. He was seen as an average Joe, and that's very appealing, he has charisma even if he can't spell it. Cristo, however looks like a complete faggot with manicured nails and I'm sure he's never done any type of real work in his entire life. He's the farthest thing from being an average Joe.
When a country elects the man they'd rather have a beer with (see 2004), I'd question the electorate before questioning the President.

Everyone bases their views on Bush by what they see on TV(aka the liberal media). I've watched several speeches [in their entirety] of President Bush's and in most of them he speaks perfectly fine and sounds like a leader. Yes there are times where he has some funny mistakes, but they're not as common as people make them out to be.
Of course the media blows things out of proportion. They always do, after all that is how they thrive, even if it isn't their purpose. No need to single out the liberal media. I think the bottom line is that most people are so sick of Bush that we've already passed judgment and are happy to have our opinions reinforced by goofy sound bytes. We're not gonna bother looking beyond bias at this point.

[Dodger]

Small businesses are a true American dream, being able to sustain yourself with no boss and being responsible for whatever happens.
Big businesses, obviously grew out of small businesses, but eventually grew out of hand with greed and power. Which is why they are threats to small business (through predatory prices which every franchise takes part of), and to our legal system, since owners, CEOs, and board of directors of corporations aren't held completely responsible for any wrong doing the corporation does.
Go to any big city, and you see they became so prosperous by having many small businesses (bakeries, butchershops..etc.), instead of one huge store, like Wal-mart. Also big businesses are more eager to violate employee rights (Wal-mart and many other big name companies hires a ridiculous amount of illegal immigants and treats them like shit, I may add). I doubt any small business would be able to do that.
Corrupt corporations are the plague of our time.

[HappyPalooza]

Small businesses are a true American dream, being able to sustain yourself with no boss and being responsible for whatever happens.
Big businesses, obviously grew out of small businesses, but eventually grew out of hand with greed and power. Which is why they are threats to small business (through predatory prices which every franchise takes part of), and to our legal system, since owners, CEOs, and board of directors of corporations aren't held completely responsible for any wrong doing the corporation does.
Go to any big city, and you see they became so prosperous by having many small businesses (bakeries, butchershops..etc.), instead of one huge store, like Wal-mart. Also big businesses are more eager to violate employee rights (Wal-mart and many other big name companies hires a ridiculous amount of illegal immigants and treats them like shit, I may add). I doubt any small business would be able to do that.
Corrupt corporations are the plague of our time.

So you're saying that if a small business becomes a big business, it's because they're evil, not because they're more efficient than the others.

[Dodger]

I think once they become corporations they receive too much freedom, because they're allowed to still control the business's actions without being held responsible for them. In a small sole proprietorship the owner is held responsible for everything that happens in his business and is therefore more careful to his consumers and employees because he has something to lose (He could actually lose his house or property).

In a corporation, even though the CEOs and Board of Directors, still completely control the company's actions, they aren't held responsible, rather all the stockholders are. In this case, the manipulators of the business have basically nothing to lose, because their private property is protected, giving them the freedom to do whatever they want with the company. And of course, many cover their asses by buying off politicians, ensuring that whatever they may or may not be doing is not stopped.

I don't care if a business prospers, more power to them. It's what most companies do to prosper and afterwards that makes me distrust them.

[Alcoholic]

Artful, not calling you stupid by any means, but I completely disagree with that, or at least believe it was a statement made by someone who looked over social and commercial logic in favor of too much general protection for working individuals (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, despite the "too much" phrase being used).

I mean, and I'm sure you didn't mean this literally, I sincerely doubt anyone is "eager" to violate anybodies' rights.
"Yesssss! See what we're doing to Harrison today? He's not allowed to wear shoes to work anymore, and I'm getting an erection just THINKING about how we're jerking him around!"

And I'm with Happy. I mean, not romantically. Just in conversation, as far as I've seen.

I'm pretty sure we're all off topic.

[Dodger]

Wal-mart is able to put such cheap prices because they hire an insane amount of illegal immigrants and pay them significantly lower than minimum wage.
There's a Tyson meat packing factory near where I live and they only hire illegal immigrants and work them around 8 hours straight with no breaks, not even to use the bathroom.

Why? So they can get their shit done faster and make more profits.
If those aren't violations of worker's rights then I don't know what is.

[Alcoholic]

Like you said.....illegal immigrants. They don't have rights here, nor do they deserve them. They came here to be paid what they're getting paid, and as far as they are concerned, goal accomplished. They're milking America as it is. Maybe that sounds harsh, but the unfair and illegal overpopulation of the States is one reason why there is such stress to do things however they can be accomplished. In the end, these people, and people like them, are both completing their goal and biting their own asses at the same time.

[Mr. Crow]

Like you said.....illegal immigrants. They don't have rights here, nor do they deserve them. They came here to be paid what they're getting paid, and as far as they are concerned, goal accomplished. They're milking America as it is. Maybe that sounds harsh, but the unfair and illegal overpopulation of the States is one reason why there is such stress to do things however they can be accomplished. In the end, these people, and people like them, are both completing their goal and biting their own asses at the same time.

Are you a Native American? If not, shut the fuck up.

[lithagos]

>.> what the hell does being native american have to do with anything?

[Alcoholic]

He's saying that I don't have the right as a whitey to say what I said.
Until the illegal immigrants come kick our asses and make this country theirs (which they're sort of doing, albeit in a nonviolent way), no, the fuck will not be shut up.
Just because I happened across with a different crowd doesn't make the point any less valid.

[lithagos]

wow gee, that makes all the sense in the world...XP i didnt know that it's okay to discriminate as long as it's towards you white people and you're manical ideas :rolleyes:

[jewishjosh]

Wal-mart is able to put such cheap prices because they hire an insane amount of illegal immigrants and pay them significantly lower than minimum wage ... they can get their shit done faster and make more profits.
If those aren't violations of worker's rights then I don't know what is.

And there is the problem with corporations. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a small business becoming successful and growing, but in order to achieve corporate levels of success (success being measured in terms of profit), they have to stoop to these lows. Capitalism is a dirty game because it can be easily abused by those looking for every advantage they can get.

[lithagos]

so dirty it works =P so theres a limit to how sucessful a business can be before it becomes bad? funny, if you want to talk about illegal immigrants and lower pay then damn, small businesses can be just as bad.

[Alcoholic]

"Stooping to those lows" is not prequisite for the success. Think about the vast majority of companies that do it the clean, straight-shooting way.

Anyway, these people ought not have the ability to have a job in the States. The corporations are doing them a favor.

[jewishjosh]

Stooping to those lows is not a prerequisite, but it's the easiest tactic to achieve such gargantuan success as Wal-Mart. How many enormous corporations do you see who don't stoop to those lows to achieve the same level of success? Sure they're successful, but not as successful.

[Alcoholic]

That's a pretty massive generalization to make. What are your feelings on illegal immigrants? As far as that goes, if you are running a company and hire many people, you're going to have to mind your budget. A guy puts in an application saying he'll work for $10 an hour, and a second says he will work for $1 an hour. Who are you going to choose?

My thing with immigrants working is the fact that they are taking the space of a naturalized citizen. If you work for less than your own worth, it's your dumb-fuck fault.

[Akvod]

Are you a Native American? If not, shut the fuck up.

He never said that the was against immigration, he said that he was against illegal immigration. He never said anything about being an American only through birth.

[Mr. Crow]

My point was that he's a fucking hypocrite.

Unless you are 100% Native American, the only fucking reason you live in America is because your ancestors immigrated here. Whether they were Irish immigrants stuffed on a boat through Ellis Island or the very fucking pilgrims themselves, you are descended from immigrants. Who the fuck do you think you are to deny anybody else the right to immigrate to America in the hopes of leading a happier life? You hypocritical piece of shit.

[The Fetus]

Mr. Crow, I have to say I completely agree with you.

We're all people. Who's to say who can and can't enter? Fuck borders. How is that any different from segregation in Alabama all those years ago.

[Alcoholic]

Well, I refuse to be a dildo queen and act like you, but like the previous statement made the fact even more clear than I had - I'm not against immigration. At the point of the pilgrim's trek, and this and that, North America was an unestablished country.

[jewishjosh]

Unless you are 100% Native American, the only fucking reason you live in America is because your ancestors immigrated here.

So we're differentiating between immigration and migration now? What claim did the people who crossed the Bering Strait have to North America? What if there had been someone else here already? You could use the same argument to justify the colonial domination of Africa because we all originated there in our Neanderthal days. (Or, if you're a creationist, I think Eden was supposedly in Mesopotamioh my god that's how Bush is justifying the war.)

In my greatest hippie commie fantasies I also disagree with the concept of borders.

[Mr. Crow]

Well, I refuse to be a dildo queen and act like you, but like the previous statement made the fact even more clear than I had - I'm not against immigration. At the point of the pilgrim's trek, and this and that, North America was an unestablished country.

Bullshit. Slapping immigration with the term illegal is just a thinly veiled way to justify bigotry and hypocrisy.

Hey, you know what? I'm against illegal immigration too. I believe that it shouldn't be illegal for foreigners to immigrate here in the first place by whatever means.

[John Travolta]

Mr. Crow, I have to say I completely agree with you.

We're all people. Who's to say who can and can't enter? Fuck borders. How is that any different from segregation in Alabama all those years ago.

No, no that's not what he means, you idiot. He means that arbitrary rules on immigration are useless. Goddamn it stop being so stupid.

[Dodger]

Like you said.....illegal immigrants. They don't have rights here, nor do they deserve them. They came here to be paid what they're getting paid, and as far as they are concerned, goal accomplished. They're milking America as it is. Maybe that sounds harsh, but the unfair and illegal overpopulation of the States is one reason why there is such stress to do things however they can be accomplished. In the end, these people, and people like them, are both completing their goal and biting their own asses at the same time.

Yeah, because it's not like they're people also. :rolleyes:

They want to be a contributing part of society and everyone is just completely bashing them when the only difference between me and one of them is a piece of paper.

The right to be employed and have safe and sanitary work conditions should be a human right that everyone should be able to enjoy. Just because they're aren't a citizen of the U.S. doesn't matter. Nationalism and Jingoism is another huge issue in today's society.


Regardless, they wouldn't come here if they didn't have a chance to get jobs. Big businesses give them jobs. Nip the problem at the bud. Regulate corporations a LOT more strictly.

[Akvod]

Bullshit. Slapping immigration with the term illegal is just a thinly veiled way to justify bigotry and hypocrisy.

Hey, you know what? I'm against illegal immigration too. I believe that it shouldn't be illegal for foreigners to immigrate here in the first place by whatever means.

So you're against any immigration laws? Because if you aren't then there has to be an illegal immigration, with the creation of any restrictions.

I mean I'm sure you agree that we can't let every single person who wants to immigrate here in, and certainly agree that we need to have a secure border and establish sovereignty...

Is it also true that the US is the number one country in terms of the amount of legal immigrants, and that the most legal immigrants come from Mexico, not even including illegal?

[Dodger]

I mean I'm sure you agree that we can't let every single person who wants to immigrate here in, and certainly agree that we need to have a secure border and establish sovereignty...

Yeah, it's not like the U.S. is a symbol for liberty, freedom, and hopes of a better life or anything.

[Akvod]

Yeah, it's not like the U.S. is a symbol for liberty, freedom, and hopes of a better life or anything.

Yeah, but if we go by that logic then we should have no laws and restrictions, be allowed to do anything we want, and give everyone a million dollars.

Don't twist this argument into a racist one: Should we have a mandatory background check on everyone who goes through our borders, and not allow any wanted criminals through it?

Most likely no right (although I did hear some bewildering shit so far in this thread...)?

So there you have it, an restriction on immigration, and with it illegal immigration.

You guys did say that you wanted to get rid of all forms of restrictions on immigration if I recall...

[almightybob]

Really? Because I played basketball for 3 years and baseball for one. I saw, in my personal opinion, that it just made kids more aggressive towards one another. I just never really saw why everyone blows a load over them. I'm not saying that kids shouldn't play sports. Do what you want. Really. I just see that they have no place in public schools.

Lots of kids are probably too poor to afford extra-curricular sports. If it's part of the school system, don't they get to play for free? They'd get coaching, the chance to play competitively and (if they're good enough obviously) get all the scholarships, signing to professional teams etc. Some of them would never have had these opportunities without school sports due to financial restrictions. Think how many great sports players would be missed if they didn't get those chances. And obviously the same should apply to the arts and music.

Furthermore, school shouldn't just be about passing exams. You're meant to learn lessons that will carry you through life. Exercise is important, so people should get into the habit of it while they're young, or at least have the opportunity.


I still don't see that as a reason how they can grab as many profits as they can. Not all corporations are bad, but a fuckload of them are. Employees at Wal-Mart are rejected health care and under payed, for example.


They can grab profits because they're smart, they make what people want, they advertise intelligently etc etc. Lots of companies make plenty of money without being 'evil'. I highly doubt the majority of companies are run unethically.

Regarding your Wal-Mart example, this website (http://wakeupwalmart.com/facts/) says that the average Wal-Mart wage is $8.23/hr for sales associates. The US Department of Labor website (http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm) lists the current federal minimum wage as $6.55/hr, rising to $7.25/hr in April 2009. The highest state minimum wage is reported as $8.00/hr in California and Massachusetts. In the UK the minimum wage for people aged over 22 is £5.52/hr (roughly $10.88 by today's exchange rate) so perhaps the problem is with the minimum wage, not with the employers. Walmart aren't breaking any laws by paying their employees $8.23. Morally they could probably take a profit cut to give their employees some more though.

Their healthcare does seem lacking, so they should be criticised for that, but one example does not mean that every major company is screwing their employees. But generalizing about the damaging effects of all big corporations because of a few makes no sense.

And yeah Lollipop, I'm fairly sure. I'm definitely more liberal than conservative anyway, but choosing a side you agree more with doesn't mean people should just blindly toe the party line on every issue.

[Prankenberry]

I scored a 19, I'm right in the middle.

[Allen]

It's not the making money part, it's the "brand and take everything we get our grubby hands on" part.

How have you been here this long without me hating you? "WAH, BIG BUSINESSES TAKE MONEY THAT I GIVE TO THEM!" Shut the fuck up. They "grab money" because they played it smart and were able to grow. Is the computer you're using right now locally assembled by some guy in a shop? No? Then shut the fuck up. It's called America. Yeah, corporations can be over-the-top with their shit, but who fucking cares? Wal-Mart doesn't give their employees health benefits? Boo-fucking-hoo. You know a great solution to that? THEY CAN FUCKING QUIT WORKING AT WAL-MART! No one is fucking making them stay employed their. Corporations only have the power that people give them, not the governement. And I'm almost certain you've bought something from Wal-Mart, so stop fucking complaining.

This is America. We're a capitalistic society. Go be a fucking communist elsewhere.

Hey Fetus just because you listen to Anti-Flag doesn't mean you have to be such a fucking pussy.


How have you been here this long without me loving you?

[Tweek]

I agree, Fetus's ideas aren't overly thought out or practical, but neither are the opinion of many right wing posters in this thread. I do somewhat agree with his feelings towards large corporations.

One of the many failures of a market economy is the ability of large business to monopolise the market and essentially turn Liberal Capitalist nations such as America in the other direction, towards very controlled economies. Because the (American, Australian etc.) government sticks to its laissez-faire principles, the large businesses go relatively unregulated.

This is the main reason why I believe in nearly completely planned economies with limited market influences.

Socially, however, I condone the granting of nearly unrestricted freedom to the people, barring behaviour that is detrimental to other beings or their property.
Conversely, I also believe that politically a nation should be very one sided to the point of fascism. This is because, as evident by this thread, people are stupid and like to feel strongly about any issue laid in front of them, and as such open the political system to extended bureaucracy and indecisiveness. Which sucks dick.

[Akvod]

Found the numbers I was talking about for Rutgers. Sorry for the block of text, but it's a good read:

was stunned and dismayed to read that you in tend to help fund the expansion of Rutgers University's stadium -- by some estimates, to the tune of $30 million.

One reason that figure caught my eye is because, if memory serves, that was precisely the amount by which the state de creased the budget for higher education for 2007.

The upshot of that budget cut, you may remember, was that Rutgers was forced to cancel 451 classes, lay off 185 employees and impose a tuition increase on its 50,000 students.

In addition to those cuts, you'll also recall, the university eliminated a number of "non-revenue sports." Today, any Rutgers stu dent who wishes to participate in heavyweight or lightweight crew, men's or women's fencing, swimming and diving or tennis can do so only at the club level.

Club-level sports, however, don't draw students who have spent years immersed in a sport. So they'll now choose schools where they'll find coaches and budgets and a higher level of competition, where they'll have a shot at being Olympics contenders, All- Americans, NCAA medalists and team and individual champions -- all of which those Rutgers teams produced in the past.

If $30 million is lying around for an upfront payment on football stadium luxury boxes, why was it impossible to find even a small fraction of that amount to save six sports that have served thousands of students over the years?

http://blog.nj.com/njv_fran_wood/2007/11/fumbling_away_tax_dollars_on_r.html

Basically this was a pretty big local political issue in New Jersey, although it might of died out now. So does anyone, although they may disagree with Fetus's proposition to completely get rid of college funded sports, agree or sympathize with the feelings of thousands of college kids and the supporters of them? That it's a bit ridiculous that sports is prioritized over education... in a school?