Drinking problem

[Ox]

Binge-drinking's a bit of a problem here in the UK. People are starting young, drinking a shit-load and commiting crimes - often violent ones.

The government here have proposed several measures to try and curb this, including:

Only selling alcohol in shops to over-21s
Having drink-only counters in supermarkets so prospective buyers have to queue twice
Upping the price of alcohol
Having a base price-per-unit of alcohol

These measures would apparently help put a stop to the problems caused by anti-social drunks.

These were reported in the news on Wednesday. Today I read a story of a young man who got drunk and into an argument with a sober 33 year-old man who he then knocked out and proceeded to kick to death. He got 4 years in prison for this. That's the same sentence another youth who sexually assaulted and tried to rape a 9 year old girl in a park.

Yup, you get drunk and murder someone - you get four years. You try to rape an innocent young girl - you get four years. Four years, of course, being the maximum term these people will serve in jail, unless they commit other offences in prison. So these two delightful chaps will be free to roam the streets again in 2012 - aged 20 and 19 respectively.

I've never been arrested. I've never been stopped by the police. Sure, I get drunk and I drink to excess at the weekends, but I have never been involved in a fight that I started. The price of my alcohol will go up and it'll be far harder for me to buy alcohol, but the people who actually commit crimes get off with pathetic sentences that are a complete joke and make a mockery of the system, the country, the victims and their families.

I'm not really sure where this goes as a discussion, but I was just so outraged and disgusted by this, I needed to rant about it. Perhaps someone can point out the part I'm missing that makes even the slightest bit of sense.

[CnGy]

Those things won't do fucking anything.

Just fyi.

You move pot to class B what do you expect.

You know what would make the teenagers stop drinking. Legalize pot.

[Anouk]

I think measures like these don't really solve the problem. Where I live you can drink alcoholic stuff if your 16 years and older. 14 year olds still get there hands on it if they really want to. They should just check ages and stuff more often to prevent these things from happening.
Also, the people that commit crimes when drunk are often the ones that commit crimes when they're sober, so that's a shitty argument.

[CharlieH]

Once again, it's another case of "The government doesn't like it, so we are going to tax the hell out of it."

Cigarettes, fuel, cars, Alcohol, air travel, moterways. There are a few other things to go on that list, but yeah.

Ox, i know your Scottish, but i hadn't heard of either stories... I'm only in Essex. :indiff:

EDIT:

14 year olds still get there hands on it if they really want to.

Also this.

[Ox]

14 year olds drink here as well. The drinking age is 18, but most kids start about that age.

The only thing I can see those measures doing is pissing off responsible drinkers who don't commit crimes and making the rapidly-increasing cost of living even higher for a shit-load of hard-working, decent people who like alcohol.

It seems that they're criminalising alcohol, instead of punishing the actual criminals properly.

[Pieman]

That would stop them from drinking as much. Too comfortable in their lounges to get up and drink.

But insane soccer mums and senile senators will stop thhat from ever happening. Because relaxed people is much worse then public beatings and rape.

EDIT: Directed at CnGy. Though I agree with the 14 year old thing, it happens here in Australia two. Got my first taste at 13, but I didn't like it. Must of been because it was cheap, piss alchohol.

[Ox]

Ox, i know your Scottish, but i hadn't heard of either stories... I'm only in Essex. :indiff:
Both happened in Scotland. The murder... sorry, "culpable homicide" occurred in Dundee and the sexual assault / attempted rape happened in Glasgow if memory serves. Check the Metro's website for details - I read about all of this in the paper.

[CharlieH]

Bleh. We have our own friggin' drink/rape crime stories too down here I guess.

[natalie137]

I agree that the things they are planning to propose will piss off responsible drinkers. I am quite a drinker, (but not so much recently due to early starts at work) and i may not be that sensible sometimes with it but the worse I'll do is sing loudly, cry and maybe vomit. I have never been violent when I have drank, and don't believe I ever will be. These new measures will make it harder for me to be able to afford to drink, but I'm not even a threat to society when I do drink.

[Tweek]

Binge drinking is a 'big issue' in Australia at the moment and it pisses me off.
The federal government is going to great lengths to curb youth binge drinking, such as heavily taxing alcopop and shit, and kicking in some new closing hours, or opening hours, or some shit.
Basically they are blaming alcohol for people getting drunk. Wait, what?
Yeah, I don't see the problem either.
If people want to drink their livers out, that is their prerogative, and I don't appreciate my government wasting all this time and effort on bullshit to accomplish nothing on a nonexistent issue which has been hyped up by the sensationalist media so they can sell more papers about the 'degenerate youth'.
Sure, I can understand that alcohol can be a major catalyst in a lot of crimes, particularly amongst younger people who aren't allowed to drink in pubs or for whatever reason like to roam the streets. But if there are crimes being committed, book them for that, not for drinking the shit that they have bought with their own money, (mostly) within the confines of the law.

[CnGy]

Yeah I agree with pretty much everything you said in your seconds posts Ox.

They go after the percieved source of the problem when all they're doing is fucking with the source's resources. Resources that are used by people other than the source.

The source being the problematic section of the populace.

[Pelican Man]

Binge drinking is a 'big issue' in Australia at the moment and it pisses me off.
The federal government is going to great lengths to curb youth binge drinking, such as heavily taxing alcopop and shit, and kicking in some new closing hours, or opening hours, or some shit.

Yeah, a lot of clubs in the Melbourne CBD now have a "doors close at 1am" policy, which basically means that the club stays 'open', but no one is allowed to enter. So, the people currently in the venue can stay there, but no one else is allowed to come in. And if the people already in pop out for a smoke-o or something, they're not allowed back in.

Which is stupid in my opinion, it'd be better to just make an earlier cut-off point as to when clubs can stay open until, or if not that, cut off when they're allowed to serve alcohol.

Edit: oh yeah, and a lot of the biggest venues in the CBD have been given allowance to ignore this law anyway, making it useless, and pretty much just crushing small business.

Also, as you said, premixes have been upped by something like 70%, to stop underage drinking, as apparently this is what all the kids are drinking. That's all well and good, but what about us adults, what the fuck did we do to have to pay 10 bucks for a bottle of Jack and coke in a bar? It's ridiculous, for most spirit and soda mixes (as in, poured by bar staff) it's $6, and for bottles it's roughly 7.5 on average.

Not only is it unfair to adults who want to drink premixes, but all it's going to do is force the kids to get bottles of straight liquor, and they don't know how to mix drinks (well, most anyway), they're gunna end up with strong shit. Or, just not bother mixing at all and just skol from the bottle.

[Quadros]

I have to admit that the way that the law, especially in Britain, deals with intoxication with respect to criminal acts, is very wrong. Intoxication is seen as an excuse. You can't generate the intention (Mens Rea) to commit a crime if you can show that you were so intoxicated at the time that you weren't capable of making decisions. You can be reckless in that state, but the recklessness is in getting drunk/doing drugs in the first place. The problem is that to commit most serious crimes you MUST have had intention to commit it at the time. So for example, in the unlawful act manslaughter case Ox talked about, the defendant showed that he was so drunk at the time that he was incapable of making any conscious decision, and therefore could not have an intention to kill the man or cause Grevious Bodily Harm, and therefore could not be held to have the mens rea to commit the crime. He just 'did it' without thinking, effectively. He was reckless in drinking in the first place though, so could be found to have killed by commiting an unlawful act, like assault or grevious bodily harm.

Personally I think the law should under go a drastic change, removing the ability to claim that you were acting autonomously through alcohol and instead ensuring that any person who kicks a helpless, innocent person to death while they're lying in the street goes down for fucking life.

[Hermano]

I think these measures are wise. I don't know about you guys, but whenever I get wasted I instantly want to rape or murder someone.

[Clerlic]

Agree with Quadros, I don't know about UK, but in here driving accidents while drunk are much more severely penalized than non-drunk accidents, I believe it should be applied to other crimes.

[John Travolta]

I have to admit that the way that the law, especially in Britain, deals with intoxication with respect to criminal acts, is very wrong. Intoxication is seen as an excuse. You can't generate the intention (Mens Rea) to commit a crime if you can show that you were so intoxicated at the time that you weren't capable of making decisions. You can be reckless in that state, but the recklessness is in getting drunk/doing drugs in the first place. The problem is that to commit most serious crimes you MUST have had intention to commit it at the time. So for example, in the unlawful act manslaughter case Ox talked about, the defendant showed that he was so drunk at the time that he was incapable of making any conscious decision, and therefore could not have an intention to kill the man or cause Grevious Bodily Harm, and therefore could not be held to have the mens rea to commit the crime. He just 'did it' without thinking, effectively. He was reckless in drinking in the first place though, so could be found to have killed by commiting an unlawful act, like assault or grevious bodily harm.

Personally I think the law should under go a drastic change, removing the ability to claim that you were acting autonomously through alcohol and instead ensuring that any person who kicks a helpless, innocent person to death while they're lying in the street goes down for fucking life.

Exactly. Insanity doesn't include alcoholism. But, the law says(in the United States, at least) that you cannot prove intent, so there is no way to know if the act was premeditated unless there's indisputable evidence that proves it or unless the man who did it admits to it. Being drunk should be no excuse for committing any crime, the law should see it that way but for some reason they don't. What this man is being charged with is comparable to Diminished Responsibility in the U.S., I don't know if it's called that in the UK though And that's totally wrong. He should be charged with Third Degree Murder because his crime lacks premeditation.

[Cristo]

These changes won't make any difference.

What the UK needs are harsher sentences, activities and mandatory programs for bored/or problematic teenagers and a more relaxed attitude to alcohol.

Deter people, from doing stupid shit. Don't just give them a slap on the wrist and a "be on your way" for murdering someone - give them life (life means life by the way, not 14 years and I don't care if there aren't enough prisons in the UK - build more), drunk or not. Also, like Hitler did, force bored, problematic youth into sports programs (or the Army Cadets for that matter) that can tire them out and teach them some discipline with pretty severe punishments if they don't attend - I don't know what kind of punishment but something unpleasant. Like, say, removing all of their Burberry fakes (that's a joke by the way).

Last but not least, don't make alcohol into such a big deal. Jesus Christ, every day the headlines in the tabloids are just something sensasionalist about the adverse affects of alcohol and how many kids drink it. In Scandinavia (Denmark, particularly) the legal drinking age is 16 years old. We have more underage drinkers in Denmark than in the UK but we have far less problems with drunk youths because we're much more relaxed about alcohol so they don't go to excess and they're taught from they're small that alcohol isn't such a big deal and that there's no need to be a cock, we also have much far fewer teen pregnancies than the UK - teen pregnancies can, indirectly, be attributed as one of the major causes of teen pregnancy (thanks for the stats BBC Three documentaries).

[EvilPaperclip]

These changes won't make any difference.
What the UK needs are harsher sentences, activities and mandatory programs for bored/or problematic teenagers and a more relaxed attitude to alcohol.

teen pregnancies can, indirectly, be attributed as one of the major causes of teen pregnancy .... sorry but thats kinda obvious :P I think you mean drinking mate.


Absolutely right there! The legal system is laughable in Britain, murder should be an instant 15 years imo, rape a long with it, if you give drunken people who rape and murder 15 years, they obviously won't be doing that again in a hurry and it will show that the Government is cracking down and that they are bloody serious. As for the taxations on alcohol and all the other crap the Government is planning, it won't work, it may stop some crimes and the amount of binge related crimes will drop temporarily, but as everyone finds ways around the system, as they ALWAYS do, it will all rise and then the Government will be sitting on their bloated arses, thinking... Damn we fucked up big. They will however, succeed in alienating responsible drinkers and drive away decent people who don't commit crimes.
As cristo said if we were more relaxed with our drinking age maybe people wouldnt be such dickheads, but it's Britain so I don't think that's gonna happen in my lifetime :(

[Quadros]

Absolutely right there! The legal system is laughable in Britain, murder should be an instant 15 years imo, rape a long with it, if you give drunken people who rape and murder 15 years, they obviously won't be doing that again in a hurry and it will show that the Government is cracking down and that they are bloody serious. As for the taxations on alcohol and all the other crap the Government is planning, it won't work, it may stop some crimes and the amount of binge related crimes will drop temporarily, but as everyone finds ways around the system, as they ALWAYS do, it will all rise and then the Government will be sitting on their bloated arses, thinking... Damn we fucked up big. They will however, succeed in alienating responsible drinkers and drive away decent people who don't commit crimes.
As cristo said if we were more relaxed with our drinking age maybe people wouldnt be such dickheads, but it's Britain so I don't think that's gonna happen in my lifetime :(

Murder and rape are automatic life sentences. And Cristo's wrong, we need to make people, young people in particular, aware of the terrible and tragic consequences messing around with alcohol can have. Alcohol is a drug, just like any other, and it's effects can be just as, if not more, devastating, and frequently are. Alos 'let's do what Hitler did?' Honestly Cristo there have been hundreds of programs like that and you pick Hitler Youth?

[John Travolta]

Murder and rape are automatic life sentences. And Cristo's wrong, we need to make people, young people in particular, aware of the terrible and tragic consequences messing around with alcohol can have. Alcohol is a drug, just like any other, and it's effects can be just as, if not more, devastating, and frequently are. Alos 'let's do what Hitler did?' Honestly Cristo there have been hundreds of programs like that and you pick Hitler Youth?

Wow, it's extremely different in the United States. Murder is only a life sentence if it's committed while another felony is in progress, and rape is almost never a life sentence unless there's a child involved.

Cristo, you don't know what you're saying. You seem too uninformed to understand that your proposal is too radical to be effective.

[Cristo]

Hey I was just thinking of one that was mandatory. I'm not talking about eradicating the jews and brainwashing the Youth, don't take it out of context (I know you love to do that), I said the Hitler Youth because it was a part of one of Hitler's health reforms to get kids grow into "well functioning", helpful members of society and everyone had to do it.

we need to make people, young people in particular, aware of the terrible and tragic consequences messing around with alcohol can have
That doesn't work. Scare tactics NEVER work, all it does is fuel the kids rebellion. Has those smoking ads on tv ever actually made an impression on you? They haven't on me. What we do in Denmark is from a young age just teach our children that anything in excess like that and behaving like that is bang out of order.
We also let ours kid try a little when they're younger, so it doesn't seem like such a "parents forbidden fruit" object. I'm not talking about getting 7 years old arsefaced, but rather letting them have a sip of your wine or cognac to let them know what it tastes like and that it really isn't all that it's cracked out to be.

Anyway, the real problem that needs to be tackled in the UK first of all are the lower class chavs. They're the ones causing the problems. Fucking chavs.

Edit: JT, all this namby pamby stuff won't work either. We need something radical to curb what's going on. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and these are indeed desperate times for the UK concerning increasing teenage violence and binge drinking.

[Alcoholic]

Quadros and John said it dead-on, as far as the views of the almost apathetic stance on some crimes committed under the influence of any drug.

Quad and Ox, I'm not sure what the public consumption laws are like in your areas, so you guys will have to fill me in.
Most places in the states are organized so that immediately upon leaving the doors of any restaurant or bar where you've been drinking, you're considered fair game. Of course, also based on the area and the colloquial positions, a lot of people can get away with stupid things. Some police officers just let things go, and of course, it's impossible to even get from a restaurants front door to a cab without being "in public", so personal discernment is applied, and some exceptions are made, so a few situations can get sticky.

But back to Ox's post, those attacks against the crimes will, in all likelihood, drive those who drink to push alcohol to a considerable black market, much like the American Prohibition way back last century (feels weird saying that).
Raising the drinking age, in all likelihood, would be one of the best bets, but unfortunate to those over the current age who drink with mutual respect to everyone around.
I know that here, in the Eastern U.S., the vast majority of underage drinkers are the typical moody high school kids, and I forgot who mentioned it, but it's pretty accurate to say that people who would fly off the handle while drunk would also stand a good chance of doing it sober. A lot of kids just look at alcohol as "liquid courage", and because they know they can abuse the system. "Oh, but your honor, I was inebriated!"
Sure, though, just because you're 18+, 21+, whatever, doesn't make you any more fit to handle situiations with alcohol in you.

Quadros, I believe, also had one of the most effective and least invasive ways to try and prevent this stuff. The preventative education is something that ought to be in very school. Don't demonize it - then you'll have all the wannabe-badasses doing it without ceasing. Definitely teach what it does though: how it gets you drunk, why it gets you drunk, loss of several functions, possible legal and medical ramifications, the whole lot.

On the other end of the "drunk crime" timeline though, punishment ought to be harsh. It's a shit way out of something to claim insobriety. You know what alcohol does, and you know what personal situations you are in. You know damned well what you may feel like doing without complete clarity.

Sadly, whatever you do, whatever restrictions come about, someone will be at a shitty loss.

[Audioslave]

No YYYERR mom's an alcholic *hic*

[JamesKPolk]

Just fucking great. I barely could stand my first year of A levels with hardly any drinking, and now they will make it impossible for me to buy alcohol even when I ding 18? I am so tempted to go to uni in a different country now. I mean, I see little to no point in drinking after 21- you are old then already and need to accept that.

[Cristo]

Go to Denmark, it's 16 there and Danish girls are easy once you get them pissed.

[jewishjosh]

But, the law says(in the United States, at least) that you cannot prove intent
So if you're clinically insane and have little conscious control over your actions, does that make rape okay?

I say harsher punishments for those who commit crimes while drunk, but don't gouge prices. It will only affect people who commit serious crimes while drunk. "Sensible drunks" know their limit regardless of the law, and unsensible drunks don't know their limit regardless of the price. Whether or not it will work as a deterrent is hard to say, but I basically agree with this:the people that commit crimes when drunk are often the ones that commit crimes when they're sober

[Ox]

So far my dad's been the only one to come up with an argument for me that makes a bit of sense.

I was talking to him about this and my approach - lock 'em up and throw away the key.
His disagreement with that lay in the fact that people who are drunk committing crimes don't think of consequences, and thus the harsher penalties wont be a deterrant.

Fair point.

My response was that if they're going to commit the crimes, regardless of punishment, then at least if the sentences are far harsher, these scumbags won't be on the streets to commit further crimes for a longer period of time. Bearing in mind that it is a fact that the majority of people released from prison re-offend.

[Buftoon]

Doesn't anyone else find it ironic that the government has legalized 24 hour drinking in the U.K. and is now complaining that we have a drinking problem? Personally I think that drinking excessive amounts is part of Britain's culture (there are references to drunken yobs as far back as the 13th Century) so it is going to be very hard to change that. If the price of booze is to be increased the Government will end up with more money, it won't stop people getting totally off their face at weekends

[Ziggy St. Valentine]

I just tried to walk home from my local pub, I got harrassed so many times on the main local street that I decided to try the train station instead. This maori tried to start a fight with me, and hit me, so many times I lost count so I just jumped the fence and went the the police station, nobody was there so I used the intercom, then waited 10mins for police to show up, instead of going to the station to arrest the guy who had hit me they just drove me to my house. How is this doing the right thing in the publics eyes? Yeah sure I had been assaulted and they got my drunk arse out of danger, but what happened to the stupid teens up and down our main street? Fucking NOTHING! Thats what.

Chainging the prices of premixed drinks won't do anything to stop underage drinking, just get more police out on the street at night, which is usually when most street crimes occur anyway.

[Pherry]

Here in Sweden the age for buying any alcohol at a bar is 18. To buy alcohol home the age is 20. I'd say the age people most commonly start drinking around here is about 15. An increase of the age limit just causes it to seem more unrealistic to wait until you can drink legally, and you only take the laws less seriously. Cause no matter how much they increase it there will always be other ways to aquire alcohol.

[Scoped]

This ahs nothing to do with binge drinking. This is another way of the government upping the taxes to rip off those who drink responsibly, screwing over the many to punish the few.
Although I agree to only selling to over 21's in shops, the problem stems form the fact that nobody ID's, my sixteen year old brother, who could be mistakn for my 13 year old sister, gets served. It's ridiculous.

[Ox]

I've been buying booze since I was about 14 /15. I know I'm tall, but fuck sake.

In other news, the proposed "base price per-unit" wouldn't affect the price of alcopops and buckfast.

Buckfast being the most common drink for scumbag criminals in Scotland.

[Lavaricia]

ultimatley raising the drinking age is just gonna puch youths more towards drug use its a stupid idea in my opinion...

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[Metzelei]

I mean, I see little to no point in drinking after 21- you are old then already and need to accept that.

Man thats ridiculous, people are starting to live to 85 easy, so how is 21 old?

And I personally think that changing prices is a step in the right direction, because, generally, its the less lucrative that commit crimes. Richer people have more of a reputation to think about. Also it keeps the drinks out of the younger groups that can't afford it with out jobs.

[gannz]

In Australia we have recently had an excise on 'alcho-pop' beverages and as such all pre-mixed alcoholic drinks are now far more expensive. The tax that they introduced to combat underage drinking is such a farcical idea it makes me laugh. The increased the price of pre-mixed drinks so now people are simply going to be drinking spirits.

The only way to actually impact the epidemic of 'drinking' is for preventative education. Kids need to know information, they need to be made aware of the situations they get themselves into.

Having a tax on a specific type of drink is only going to impact on people that drink only that type of drink. I for one simply stopped drinking pre-mix drinks and mix my own drinks (which i used to do before as well) and only drink beers.



And I personally think that changing prices is a step in the right direction, because, generally, its the less lucrative that commit crimes. Richer people have more of a reputation to think about. Also it keeps the drinks out of the younger groups that can't afford it with out jobs.

You obviously don't socially drink because a lot of the uni people that I drink with only drink the 'alco-pop' beverages when we go to the bar. Because of this tax they are far more reluctant to go as beers are not quite what they want to be drinking.

[Valentine55]

I'm 14 and I haven't ever drunk any alcohol, even at occasions like christmas when my parents would let me (not enough to get me drunk of course). I wasn't planning to until i was 18 but there is no way in hell i'm waiting to 21 to drink.
How lame does it look to be a 20 year old drinking coke in a pub.

Edit: Also, raising the price is really going to piss off me (and i'm sure alot of other people aswell)

[BreakTheWalls]

I got a drinking problem as well.

If Joe drinks one litre of juice and Tom drinks two, how much did they both drink?

But seriously, the government is blaming the beer because it's the beer that's addicted to the chavs. :indiff:

It's more likely I reckon that they'll up the age limit to 21 like in America than do all these ludicrous endeavours. Too many teenagers think it's cool to 'get laggered' and get 'rat-arsed'. Maybe that would stop their binging ways. Because health warnings don't seem to get across.

[CharlieH]

I wasn't planning to until i was 18 but there is no way in hell i'm waiting to 21 to drink.
How lame does it look to be a 20 year old drinking coke in a pub.

Well, you won't be the only one will you. It'll be the same for everyone.

It's pretty fucking stupid.

In America you can have kids, buy a house, get a driving License, build a career, but not legally have a nice cold beer at the end of the day. Now thats backwards.

[Silverpaperplate]

Go to Denmark, it's 16 there and Danish girls are easy once you get them pissed.

Oh shush. You're only allowed to buy alcoholic beverages at the age of 16 if it's in a shop. But truly, we have a drinking problem. You're not allowed on a bar before you're 18. I know people at the age of 14 being allowed to enter. I myself can go on a bar too. They should ask for ID every time, no matter appearance.

I think it's pointless to give drunk people a harsher punishment. But again, drinking enough to start fooling around like that really do call for some arse kicking by the law.

[Cranky_Panda]

I have no problem with the taxation of alcohol because I don't drink alcohol at all but it's not going to help. In germany they already taxed the shit out of alko-pops and it changed nothing the youth is still drinking too fucking much. Educating about the dangers won't help either cause then it will become the forbidden apple like mentioned before the only thing you can try is alter the image of alcohol to make it seem less "cool" to drink. The majority of minors drinking do it because they want to fit in with the others and not for the fun of it.

And the issue with poeple drunk getting mitigation of sentence is the same here and its ridicolous just because you're drunk makes you less responsible for your doing? Hang'em high (metaphorically speaking)

[gannz]

I have no problem with the taxation of alcohol because I don't drink alcohol at all but it's not going to help. In germany they already taxed the shit out of alko-pops and it changed nothing the youth is still drinking too fucking much. Educating about the dangers won't help either cause then it will become the forbidden apple like mentioned before the only thing you can try is alter the image of alcohol to make it seem less "cool" to drink. The majority of minors drinking do it because they want to fit in with the others and not for the fun of it.

The whole point of alcohol education is to promote responsibility among youths. The reason for drinking to excess is lack of education and knowledge. How many educated people do you see going out picking fights when they're drunk?
Most educated people understand this before they drink and as such aren't as aggressive. That being said, you still get massive douchebags who are educated and drink and think they're king shit.

To be honest, no one should be given any leeway for drinking. If you make stupid decisions while drinking they are your decisions and you are going to be responsible for them.

Someone else suggested that raising the age could potentially combat over consumption of alcohol ... how does that even enter the realms of a solution? How many underage parties have you been to kid?

Seriously, if people want alcohol at there parties they're going to be able to get it, whether its through an older brother or a parent or a friend.

I worked in a liquor store and refused alcohol service to a lady because she was discussing with her daughter what she would like for her 17th birthday (her daughter was hot on a side note). Anyways, the mother got very upset, abused me, started telling me how to do my job and I nearly lost it.

I told her that she couldn't speak to me like that and if she yelled at me again I would not be able to stop myself from pointing out how much of an negligent parent she was. She wanted to speak to my manager and he pretty much came down, laughed at me, told her the rules, told her I was doing my job and that the only way I could sell alcohol to her was if i was to break the law. After she left he laughed at her and said "how what was her daughter."

Long story short not many employees would wish to go through the hassle of refusing parents alcohol for their children. It is tedious and unless you're morally against it chances are you'll just flog it off.

[Antisaint]

If people can't handle their alcohol, take it away from them. Put a sticker on their ID or something.

[Jasian]

Raising the legal age for drinking won't do shit all. I'm 16 and me and all of my friends can get alcohol, pot, cigarettes, you name it, by standing outside the 7/11 and asking random guys that look cool enough to do it.

The only thing that would change if they raised the age would be us asking guys "Are you 21?" instead of "Are you 19?".

And the thing about being lenient to people because they were drunk is bullshit. Just a few days ago, this girl I know who is going out with my best friend totally made an ass of herself at a house party, crying and yelling and just being a general slut to every guy she saw (my friend wasn't at the party). So yesterday, I'm talking to her and she starts bitching me out because I told her she was pissing me off that night and that my friend should be pissed off with her as well. Her defense was, "I was fucking drunk I didn't know what I was doing!" So I told her that it was completely her fault because she chose to get drunk herself and she knew exactly what she was doing that night (Also she's 15). And then she calls me an idiot and an asshole and just leaves.

People who don't take responsibility for what they do when they're drunk/high are the worst kind of assholes in my opinion, because like I said, no-one shoved the alcohol down their throats, they've drank before and they all know what they're doing so don't blame it on the drinks!

[Ox]

The whole point of alcohol education is to promote responsibility among youths. The reason for drinking to excess is lack of education and knowledge. How many educated people do you see going out picking fights when they're drunk?
Most educated people understand this before they drink and as such aren't as aggressive. That being said, you still get massive douchebags who are educated and drink and think they're king shit.
People who drink know exactly what it does to them. Education comes in the form of experience and in no other way because nobody listens to what their parents / school / educational videos tell them.

I'm well-educated and more knowledgeable than most on the topic of alcohol and I drink to excess all the time. The difference being that I'm not a complete cunt and a criminal, so I don't go around kicking people's heads in.

It's not alcohol's fault and it's not the educational systems fault. It is the perpatrator of the crime's fault and nobody else's. They should be punished, nobody else should be penalised for their misdeeds.

[gannz]

People who drink know exactly what it does to them. Education comes in the form of experience and in no other way because nobody listens to what their parents / school / educational videos tell them.

That statement is not true in the least. As far as experience goes, there are many forms of it. Whether you gain experience through doing, reading, watching or listening you are still gaining experience (sounds like you're playing an RPG).

Just because specific methods of education don't work on an entire population doesn't mean that it isn't having an affect on some or a large portion of the group.

There was a smoking study conducted by the ANU(Australian National University) on high school students which found that students has very little education on smoking. It showed significant evidence that students were misinformed about smoking and there was a high proportion that thought smoking caused numerous illnesses that smoking has no relation to. This kind of misinformation can lead many students to completely disregard and simply have disdain for any of the completely biased and uninformative dribble that is provided to them in the form of advice.

As for education being the answer, I meant education in a broader sense. If you educate the 'drunk aggressive people' before they had a chance to be drunk and aggressive, as in instill morals, compassion, sympathy into them, chances are they would not turn into raging angry drunks.

Education works on many levels and you have to think long term. Increasing the cost is a stupid solution and making punishments harsher is just as stupid. It will basically lead to a loss of revenue for many companies and economic hardship. I for one have point blank refused to buy alcho-pop drinks when i'm out and many of my friends have the same mentality.

[Ox]

It's not the educational system's job to install morals, compassion or sympathy into youths. That has to be done from a far earlier age at home. Sadly, most young people here who are drunk and violent have been exposed to that at home, or at least in the economically deprived areas that they tend to come from.

If you're looking to make decent people, you need to ensure they come from a decent background, and that's all but impossible as it's the people from deprived areas, both socially and economically, who cause the majority of the problems and spawn the most children. Obviously I'm generalising here and there are exceptions, but this is my experience from living in West-Central Scotland where I assure you this is the case.

[gannz]

I agree with that last statement that there is a definite correlation between those who may be socio-economically deprived and those who commit crimes which indicates that the two are definitely related and a lower socio-economic level will lead to the individual being more susceptible to alcoholism and thus to crimes.

Poverty plays a big role in alcohol abuse and the only way for alcohol abuse and crimes committed under the influence of alcohol is to be addressed is with opportunities for the children who are in bad situations. Increasing the price of alcohol would only make them poorer and take more away from them inciting them to more crime and giving them more reason to steal.

Who knows, maybe the forumers on C&H can come up with a solution to the drinking 'epidemic' for the governments of the world.

[xkittenxsocksx]

If people can't handle their alcohol, take it away from them. Put a sticker on their ID or something.

What? Your idea would probably make people see drinking as a sport, people would brave themselves on their drink handling abilities and aspirations of having an iron liver would surface until they dropped dead of cirrhosis. YOU'RE A BAD HUMAN.

[Chaplin]

I read some story how some sap who got really drunk and then ordered a $ 26,000 Rolex and the next morning he didn't even know he ordered it. Now he's in huge debt. Drinking can screw people up.

[Eri]

Here in Sweden, selling alcohol has been nationalised and a company runned by the state is selling it. You need to be 20 years old to buy there, but in bars you only need to be 18.

[Cristo]

Yeah but Eri, that doesn't work very well?

It's stupidly over-priced (even for Sweden) and all it does is cause you Swedes to spend all of your weekends in Copenhagen getting pissed on "cheap" alcohol and lining the Danish pockets. Hey, I'm not complaining, and neither is Denmark I'm just saying it could be more successful since it doesn't really stop your youth from drinking to excess.

[bizzle]

Governments are bending over backward to try to "safen up" alcohol with laws and regulations and educating children on proper consumption? (wtf?) Yet, one of the safest recreation substances on the planet is illegal. Am I the only one who sees hypocrisy in this.

I hate alcohol. I think its senseless and expensive and all together unenjoyable. It causes so many problems in so many lives and instead of re-evaluating the overall legality of it they just try every other method to make it less troublesome.

I used to drink like any other teenager. I didn't start until I was 16 but I gave it up half way through college. It got expensive, it got painful and honestly I spent too many nights sober or stoned watching my drunk friends make absolute idiots of themselves that it lost all appeal to me. I hate drunk people. They are loud and whiny and angry and stupid and annoying. They smell, they look awful and their unpleasant to be around. (I'm talking drunk people keep in mind.)

I think the only reason alcohol has not become a banned substance over the more modern years is because of how old it is and references to it in the bible (or Koran or Torah - whatever). If Jesus had turned water into weed, I think the situation would have been reversed but I don't think alcohol would have survived the test of time without the mass production and marketing.

[Cristo]

Yeah but weed is pretty fucking stupid too.

Sitting around all night, laughing at the word poo and pondering on how weird it would be if there were pink elephants with wellies on isn't exactly my idea of a really cool night in.

Also, when at a party and my friends get high they get really anti-social. They sit in a corner and pass out, or pass out on a sofa if there is one.

[bizzle]

Obviously people enjoy smoking weed because they do it. It is fun.

I'd much rather see people who go clubbing and get stoned then go home really tired and go to bed than see people who go clubbing, drink their faces off throw up a couple times break a few things or faces in the street on their way home then wake up the next morning throwing up and regretting their actions.

I've seen drunks pass out in corners too. I've seen drunks pass out on streets. I've seen drunks passed out on beaches and in cars but I've never even heard of a case of someone throwing a punch because of how stoned they were. I've never heard of anyone have unprotected sex then get knocked up because they were so high they could even remember doing what they did and if they did then they are bullshitting you. because I've been in extreme states of both kinds of intoxication and all of your judgement is there on weed. You know what you're doing.

I'm not turning this into a "legalize it" thread. But I am suggesting that alcohol should be criminal. It probably wouldn't help the situation. But it would at least make sense.

[Iamyourboo2]

The raising alcohol to 21 won't help. I'm American and it doesn't work at all. I know few people under 21 that don't drink at least every other weekend.

[Amazingly]

I pretty much agree with every argument Ox has made. A lot of you need to think your arguments through to the end. Anyway, any crime committed while intoxicated should automatically double whatever sentence is allowed, both in the U.K. and the U.S.

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[Britney Spears]

I like how people get so excited about these topics, because, really, these are the more gutsy topics. Drinking. Grr. Adults. Regardless, it's very funny to see people type these pristine high school five paragraph essays and think that people are reading them getting great advice and commentary.

I like to drink. Grow a beard, that's how I get booze.
Sell yourself for cash. Then who cares about the price ups?