Religion: The real deal or just another ghost story

[Ztripp]

Okay, i'm just going to start out by saying that although this may be my first post, I don't believe myself to be an idiot. So, please don't flame me, ban me, put me in "time out" or otherwise ridicule me. So here goes.

Is religion just a system to enslave the masses with ghost stories to make them "do right", or promote a common ground for a larger power to control i.e. the pope, a shah, rabbi, preist, the Dali Lama (probably spelled wrong but you get the point), or to just fill the coffers of someone who is already rich?

Or is it something that is true, something that we heathens should fear and respect. Is there a hell? Is there a god watching us like a perverbial Santa Clause to make sure we're being naughty or nice? Is this something that is more than faith, and if it is, then how does one know whether they have chosen the right religion? One can choose to be Christian, Buhdist, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Jewish, Confucian, Taoist, Wiccan, or even be a part of the church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster. I could choose to worship a sun god like the mayans, or bow down to Zeus as the ancient greeks did. And of these religions, there are many sects within them. So if i become a member of the Jewish religion, and choose to be a Reform Jew, does that mean I am denied entrance into heaven if Orthadox Judaism was the only way in? Is it like a game show in which if I choose the wrong answer I am sent to hell?

So lets get to my view. In my opinion, let me repeat, my OPINION, not being so bold as to say my views are fact. I believe that religion is toatally false. It being nothing more but a machine to control the population *cough* government *cough*. Where is this divine being? With wars and famine and diseacse so persistant throughout human history, why hasn't this guy stepped into the boxing ring to fight for the human cause? Reason, he, she, it, doesn't exist. There is no evidence of a god, goddess, or other being, and I leave it up to you, the great explosm members to give me a little insight on why I am wrong or right.

[.dot]

Okay, i'm just going to start out by saying that although this may be my first post, I don't believe myself to be an idiot. So, please don't flame me, ban me, put me in "time out" or otherwise ridicule me. So here goes.

All of those things will probably never happen unless you make yourself out to be a completely idiot.

Back on topic:

Different religions were created for different purposes. I can't really say something like, religion is a giant ghost story made to control the masses. Religion to most people means answers, salvation, hope, and other things. I'm personally not religious.

[Kass]

All religions have potential to unite people and promote well being as well as control the masses.

Religion is what you make of it. We all live in our own worlds, and what we believe to be true, is. That is, with the exception of being delusional.

[Infammo]

Asking "is religion true?" is like asking "are crackers healthy?" You're going to have to be a little more specific.

I don't really understand the world enough to know whether or not religion is beneficial. If we got rid of it we might become a planet of immoral egotists out for themselves, if we fully embrace it we might have a totalitarian government ruling over an uneducated populous. What we have now is working I guess.

[Matteress]

Religion, orginally was used as a tool to explain things that couldnt be explained. Look at the greek gods, or the roman gods, they all explained different things that happened thoughtout the day. I wouldnt say its to "control" the masses, but rather to give peace to them. If something happens and it is unexplainable a slightly plausable answer, can sound extremely good as, we search to understand things around us.

I cant say weather religion is "true or not" because you cant prove it either way. There might well be the existance of some type of god, but u cant prove there really is, or there really isnt. The old call of oh why doesnt the "god" if he/she is so divine help us when we screw up, isnt really a good arguement. Consider this, as a parent you cant dictate everything your child does, its impossible to watch them 24/7, so therefore they will do things you told them not to, like touching something hot after you told them not to, so they learn that it is hot for themselves. Its simple really, "god" could just be treating us like little kids, he advises us and sets down rules, but he has to let us make mistakes, and learn from those mistakes , so we can grow as people.

No im not relgious in the sense of believing in a particular relgion, but i am open to the ideas and beliefs religion can teach us. If it makes people happy, why not have a religion, why not let them believe in something you consider not to exist?? If they are truely happy believing in what they believe in, it doesnt matter weather its "true" or not, its there happiness that matters, and i dont think people should flame religion itself or people who believe something just because it conflicts with your views. If you do, what evidence do you truely have that you are right?? Noone has come back from the dead, totally dead(brain signals totally stop), and you werent there at the beggining of time, so there is no way u can present a 100% accurate thesis of what happened or will happen

[PrettyHasItsPrice]

This is all I have left to say on religion:

<<Deleted>>

[Ztripp]

? If they are truely happy believing in what they believe in, it doesnt matter weather its "true" or not, its there happiness that matters, and i dont think people should flame religion itself or people who believe something just because it conflicts with your views. If you do, what evidence do you truely have that you are right??

Woah, I'm not flaming religion, I was, as I had written, stating my opinion, which now looking back seemed a litle broad. Yes religion is good for most who choose it (reactionary and radical sects maybe not), and it does present good morals to stand by, of which I have no problem with.

I need to narrow this down a litle bit. What i think i want to say is, religion or science? Is religion worth all of the problems (and good things too) and is there any evidence that it exists? Or should it be all about fact over faith? It's big bang over creation and there is more evidence to support the former than the latter.

[RabidMonkey]

On the note of religious morals.

They have good ideas for morals, but the general thing seems to be that they don't follow them. They have the 10 commandments, and it seems to be that only a couple are followed, those being the most obvious ones. As far as I can remember, there aren't many wars that didn't have religion involved, e.g, War on terror wouldn't have started if not for religion. WWII, don't know much about WWI though, and many many more...
So in my opinion, religion seems to cause more trouble than it prevents, it seems that in most religions, killing is against it, UNLESS, it's in the name of your religion. Christian Commandments, one of them being "Thou shalt not kill" just shows how far Christianity have swayed. And "Thou shalt not worship idols" (or something of the sort), shows that catholics have gone against 'the lords wishes'.
If you want to be religious, sure go for it, but come on, at least follow the fucking rules... Also, I hate those door knocking bastards who try and ram it down your throat, and when you tell them to stuff off after they have been to your house 3 or so times, they start screaming that you're going to burn in hell for all eternity, so you just turn them into a blathering mess by saying hell doesn't exist.
Also, give me one thing that proves anything in the bible, or that proves the existence of a god. I can prove against, or at least provide evidence against.
So thats basically some of my thoughts. Science is a proven thing, religion is made to explain what can be explained fully and sensibly with science.
Just one last note, where do dinosaurs fit into the bible?

The only way we can fully prove against is with a time machine, go back, prove Jesus was no more than a normal man, prove how the earth was created and e.t.c

[RabidMonkey]

I have to sya I do love this particular CAD, yes this is related to the topic by the way. http://ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20070706

[Clerlic]

I know that all Earth religions containing divine powers are wrong and most are used to extract money from people. A human can be happy without religion. I am happy with the possibility of having nothing after death.

[Growlypantz]

I think somebody may have said this, but religion was, essentially, invented to explain what couldn't be explained. It's been around ever since early humans wanted an explanation for anything strange that happened in their lives. I think people who fear death also like the idea of living forever, thus they invent afterlives once they figure out they're not going to live forever.

I think it also serves to make life sacred, but I think the problem with that is when in the hands of anyone arrogant, religion becomes something that only makes SOME lives sacred. Only one race, only one gender, species, etc, and the rest can be freely killed in "God's name" or whatever.

Religion isn't needed for morality. Empathy trumps a mythical being in the sky any day. Just look at other social animals, particularly apes, they've shown morality and yet I doubt they have religions.

We shouldn't NEED a God to keep us fearing hell in order to be moral. We should be moral because we're moral.

My honest opinion is that religion is obsolete. We don't need religion to explain things anymore, we have science. If you want meaning in your life, find it in life itself instead of worrying about what will happen when you die. I refuse to believe that the world works as a hierarchy with God on top, next is Jesus or whoever, etc. Everything in my mind is just one big cycle, and everything changes form constantly to keep it going. I don't believe in God.

Yeah, that's about it.

[Syzrael]

I'm personally not very fond of religion. It was probably quite beneficial to people thousands of years ago, to give them answers to impossible questions, but in this modern society, where technology improves drastically every year, it should have no say in politics or government.
I'm fine with anybody believing what they want, but when people try to force religious morals and beliefs into laws or politics (ex. abortion, stem cell research), I really don't like it. I think religion should be limited, and should not have such an important position in society.

[MaTora]

I'm honestly not a fan of religion. If it helps some people and doesn't harm others I say go for it.

Personally, if there is a God, I'll convert when I meet God or get thrown to Hell.

[[MCD]MaDDY]

Personally, My opinion is that religion is flawed for the fact that to be able to believe what they say, generally you have to worship in their methods and not your own.
I don't have a relgion and don't need one. I can worship god on my own.

[Rakala]

It is in my observations that religion is there to keep people in check. Most religions want and preach the same thing. Ie: be loving towards others. It's all, what I would think, "common sense" that apparently not many people have. The specifics of, lets say, the Bible are all just stories that teach you right from wrong. It is also, in my opinion, that religion might have originally come up as a solution to that unavoidable realization: man is mortal (now don't go all philosophical on me, I know that logical fallicy) It is impossible to comprehend not existing, therefore making it a scary concept. With relgion, you have an instant answer on how to live forever in some way, shape or form.

[Mr. Crow]

There's nothing to debate here, since religion has absolutely no evidence supporting its truth. You might as well be debating on whether invisible flying unicorns exist.

All the evidence in the past shows that religion in general was created to give answers to primitive man's questions, and it was corrupted and used as a method to control the masses. You're certainly not going to argue with your king or pope or leader when he says that he's a direct pipeline to god, and your religion threatens you with pain and hellfire if you don't follow certain laws and regulations (which, funny enough, usually seem to benefit said king/pope/leader).

[Clerlic]

It is still used as a method to control the masses. Take one of the most obvious ones for example. That scientology crap, all they do is suck money out of people. Or Jehovas witnesses or mormons, they only want you to become one of them and give them your money. Religion is one thing what's wrong with the modern world. People are being brainwashed from their birth to believe things that are impossible.

PS. I can only hope that with the Internet spreading to every home, people will eventually seek out the truth for themselves. Although sites like "christiananswers.com" aren't helping either, someone should ddos it.

[bannanaphone]

I'm hoping these threads aren't a habit around here I left the last forum I went to because people were becoming paranoid over peoples religions.

[Clerlic]

I'm hoping these threads aren't a habit around here I left the last forum I went to because people were becoming paranoid over peoples religions.

They aren't, but nobody's getting paranoid over religions except for the religion's followers.

[buckfan]

I really hate religion threads. Everyone goes back and forth with stupid ,ignorant rants.

New guy, its been done a million times and it belongs in the debate forum if we still have one.

[bannanaphone]

They aren't, but nobody's getting paranoid over religions except for the religion's followers.

I didn't mean paranoid literally as in "omg they're after me" I mean that everyone ends up thinking their right and they go back and forth and back and forth until it de-evolves into a retarded flame war that no-one remembers how it started.

Well, that's what happened on the last forum anyway.

[buckfan]

So why doesn't a hero-mod swoop in and delete this horrible topic?

I mean, he's almost guaranteed a blowjob from someone here.

[bannanaphone]

They aren't, but nobody's getting paranoid over religions except for the religion's followers.

So why doesn't a hero-mod swoop in and delete this horrible topic?

I mean, he's almost guaranteed a blowjob from someone here.

I'd blow any mod that would lock this baby
:gtfi:

[BreakTheWalls]

So why doesn't a hero-mod swoop in and delete this horrible topic?

The mods should have heeded this warning 2 years ago.

[BmphP]

There is no god.

[Diki]

im jesus

[Xantii]

I believe in God, Jesus and all of that. Because they do exist, and I don't need proof to know.

[Raxo]

I'm god.

There's your proof Xantii.

[SODA]

Religion is for queers, so I guess if you are queer its cool.

[The1Qtip]

I believe in God, Jesus and all of that. Because they do exist, and I don't need proof to know.
What would you say to a Muslim who "knows" that Muhammad was the last prophet, and his word is the true word of god. Would you say "you're wrong"?

[Xantii]

Bleh, you have your opinions I have mine. I guess that's all there's to it. ;)

[Xantii]

What would you say to a Muslim who "knows" that Muhammad was the last prophet, and his word is the true word of god. Would you say "you're wrong"?

Do I have to say something to him? Those are his beliefs. Let him be.

[BmphP]

Do I have to say something to him? Those are his beliefs. Let him be.

The thing is only one person can be right. Just because you believe something doesn't make it right.

[ilovebrownies]

jews did 9/11

[Xantii]

The thing is only one person can be right. Just because you believe something doesn't make it right.

And when did I say I was right? As far as I'm concerned, I could be wrong. But in the mean time I am a christian. And no, I'm not a fanatic, those people are fucked up in the mind. I live a normal life, that's all.

[BmphP]

ya right you probably want to kill jews and faggots and children

[Raxo]

And when did I say I was right? As far as I'm concerned, I could be wrong. But in the mean time I am a christian. And no, I'm not a fanatic, those people are fucked up in the mind. I live a normal life, that's all.

So your beliefs are wrong, right?

[Xantii]

Uh.... Fuck it! Jesus, this is just confusing.

No they aren't wrong. What could be wrong in believing in God? In my eyes it isn't wrong.

[BmphP]

Well if god doesn't exist then it's pretty wrong.

[ilovebrownies]

but in my eyes, god exists, right?

[BmphP]

which god

[Metalhead636]

Uh.... Fuck it! Jesus, this is just confusing.

What'da 'ya want me to do?
:roffle:

[AaronsAllRight]

And when did I say I was right? As far as I'm concerned, I could be wrong. But in the mean time I am a christian. And no, I'm not a fanatic, those people are fucked up in the mind. I live a normal life, that's all.

I think that if you honestly believe in a one true god that condemns lost souls into a fiery pit for all of eternity, you would be a fanatic, and think that there was nothing wrong with it. I would expect that of anyone that claims something so delusional.

I believe that a lot of religions are also an excuse to get away with things you would otherwise feel morally wrong for doing; ie the Jesus credit-card of forgiveness.

[Xantii]

Whoa, when I said fanatic people, I meant people that just talk about the Bible and go to church about 2 times a day.

Why can't is be as simple as "I Xantii BELEIVE IN GOD!" and period? What is there to fucking debate here? Those are my beliefes, deal with it.

[laugh]

I think religion is needed, in antiquety religion was made to explain the world around those who lived then. I need religion, because i'd go insane in this world without it.

[BmphP]

because i'd go insane in this world without it.

how so?

[Mazkal]

religion is toatally false. It being nothing more but a machine to control the population *cough* government *cough*. Where is this divine being? With wars and famine and diseacse so persistant throughout human history, why hasn't this guy stepped into the boxing ring to fight for the human cause? Reason, he, she, it, doesn't exist. There is no evidence of a god, goddess, or other being, and I leave it up to you, the great explosm members to give me a little insight on why I am wrong or right.

This is more or less correct. Religion also assumes that humans are the only species that really counts on the planet and that everything is "designed" around and to support us. This is also false. Humans have existed on the planet for what? About 200K years? We've been in our current state of evolution for about 40-60K of that 200K? That is a mere drop in the ocean in comparison to the 4.6 billion years the planet has been in existance.

Our development and eventual extinction will barely be noticed in the overall life of this planet.

[TheFerret]

The world's only been around for roughly 200k years. Fossils are merely a trick by Satan so that people get sent to hell for him to sodomize.:science:

[Mazkal]

:hit::hit:The world's only been around for roughly 200k years. Fossils are merely a trick by Satan so that people get sent to hell for him to sodomize.:science:

I do detect sarcasm here right?

[Ocellatus]

in antiquety religion was made to explain the world around those who lived then.

That's beacuse they didn't have science. Religion could also be seen as a means of controlling the masses. As in, "Do what I say, or god is going to kick your ass."

[Laurence]

Hey it's our fortnightly religion thread. Everyone is wrong about everything.

edit: wait nevermind, this is a 2 year old thread. why the hell did it get bumped?

[VerminScum]

You're wrong Laurence.

[Laurence]

Oh no paradox!

[Quadros]

Oh hooray another religion thread, these never get old. (intentional bump joke)

Religion is important to a lot of people and these people generally hold their religious beliefs as deeply, as naturally and as fervently as a sexuality or a racial identity. Religion is necessary to religious people because deep down (and don't ask me to explain this logically, because logic defies it) just know God(s) exists. To question the existence of religion as a brain washing organisation, or a mechanism of extortion that takes advantage of naive people, or a warmongering vehicle of social disunity, is to do an incredible injustice to all those who believe in God(s), which is wrong especially if it's a fundamental part of who they are in the same way that sexuality or racial identity can be.

Writing off religion as being in some way harmful to scientific or humanistic advancement is an ignorant and wicker-man approach, yes it's true that religion has stood in the way of science before but science has stood in the way of ethics before and just as science has changed and developed to embrace ethics so most religions have developed to embrace science.

Pretty much every historical atrocity committed by 'religion' was committed by people, and the fact of the matter is they probably would have done it anyway. There is in fact a long list of non-religious or actively atheist crimes against humanity but they're no basis or saying a lack of religion is evil or detrimental to society. I firmly believe that religion is part of what makes the world so great and the variety of culture, ideologies and opinions is our greatest asset in the pursuit of advancement as a civilisation. One might point out that religious strife is still rampant, but let me ask you this; Without religion, wouldn't we still have invaded Iraq and Afganistan? Without religion, was there not still a multitude of reasons for the oppressed people of the middle east to have issues with the USA, and for a few of them to take things way too far and crash planes into the largest symbols of American Globalisation? (Remember especially that it was symbols of industrial and military might, not religious buildings, which were attacked). Even without religion, wouldn't the people of Iraq and Afghanistan still have resisted the invasion and occupation of their homes?

One might also venture to argue that at least 90% of the serious posts in this thread alone have been atheists back slapping each other and repeating, verbatim, the same points over and over with the words 'in MY opinion' dotted about to give the impression that their opinions were independently formed and they were better than religious people. BUZZ you're not. You're the same. Equal. We all are. I think it's great that you're decided on your approach to life, your beliefs and ideology, whatever they might be. But Don't think it makes you unique. You're an atheist in the same way I'm a Christian, with the same views and opinions as millions of other people and your arguments can very often be copy pasted into another atheist's argument seamlessly. That's not an attack, in fact I think it's great, I just think any accusation of 'brain washing' or 'sheep like behaviour' can only backfire. Because you're really no different. And condemning religious people to being less intelligent than atheists (we've all seen that one thrown around on this forum) or holding back progress (that too) or being obsolete and unnecessary to humanity as a whole (don't deny it, that's come up too) is no different and no better than the fanatics condemning you to hell. And by the by, not many religious folk actually believe that. We haven't done since maybe the '20s, excluding the bible belt who I can't speak for and have no wish to. They're fanatics in the same broad vein that jihadists are, and church burners are.

So yeah, there's my view. I'm just going to copy paste it from now on.

[Ocellatus]

In before tldr.

[Iiro]

Oh hooray another religion thread, these never get old. (intentional bump joke)

Religion is important to a lot of people and these people generally hold their religious beliefs as deeply, as naturally and as fervently as a sexuality or a racial identity. Religion is necessary to religious people because deep down (and don't ask me to explain this logically, because logic defies it) just know God(s) exists. To question the existence of religion as a brain washing organisation, or a mechanism of extortion that takes advantage of naive people, or a warmongering vehicle of social disunity, is to do an incredible injustice to all those who believe in God(s), which is wrong especially if it's a fundamental part of who they are in the same way that sexuality or racial identity can be.

Writing off religion as being in some way harmful to scientific or humanistic advancement is an ignorant and wicker-man approach, yes it's true that religion has stood in the way of science before but science has stood in the way of ethics before and just as science has changed and developed to embrace ethics so most religions have developed to embrace science.

Pretty much every historical atrocity committed by 'religion' was committed by people, and the fact of the matter is they probably would have done it anyway. There is in fact a long list of non-religious or actively atheist crimes against humanity but they're no basis or saying a lack of religion is evil or detrimental to society. I firmly believe that religion is part of what makes the world so great and the variety of culture, ideologies and opinions is our greatest asset in the pursuit of advancement as a civilisation. One might point out that religious strife is still rampant, but let me ask you this; Without religion, wouldn't we still have invaded Iraq and Afganistan? Without religion, was there not still a multitude of reasons for the oppressed people of the middle east to have issues with the USA, and for a few of them to take things way too far and crash planes into the largest symbols of American Globalisation? (Remember especially that it was symbols of industrial and military might, not religious buildings, which were attacked). Even without religion, wouldn't the people of Iraq and Afghanistan still have resisted the invasion and occupation of their homes?

One might also venture to argue that at least 90% of the serious posts in this thread alone have been atheists back slapping each other and repeating, verbatim, the same points over and over with the words 'in MY opinion' dotted about to give the impression that their opinions were independently formed and they were better than religious people. BUZZ you're not. You're the same. Equal. We all are. I think it's great that you're decided on your approach to life, your beliefs and ideology, whatever they might be. But Don't think it makes you unique. You're an atheist in the same way I'm a Christian, with the same views and opinions as millions of other people and your arguments can very often be copy pasted into another atheist's argument seamlessly. That's not an attack, in fact I think it's great, I just think any accusation of 'brain washing' or 'sheep like behaviour' can only backfire. Because you're really no different. And condemning religious people to being less intelligent than atheists (we've all seen that one thrown around on this forum) or holding back progress (that too) or being obsolete and unnecessary to humanity as a whole (don't deny it, that's come up too) is no different and no better than the fanatics condemning you to hell. And by the by, not many religious folk actually believe that. We haven't done since maybe the '20s, excluding the bible belt who I can't speak for and have no wish to. They're fanatics in the same broad vein that jihadists are, and church burners are.

So yeah, there's my view. I'm just going to copy paste it from now on.
lmao

[SlothMan]

Nice.

[opn4bzns]

WomanofRage makes an interesting point.

[CnGy]

I think Jesus is real.

He is an apple.

He is every apple, orange, he is all fruit.

Fruit is tasty.

Must be Jesus.

[ThiTcholas]

If religion is true or not, none of us can awser this question, and if we start this discuss we will be on a loop...

[VerminScum]

Titties are the essence of Jesus/God

[CnGy]

And sperm.

How do you think god made the universe anyway?

He ejaculates stars.

[VerminScum]

And from his tits shot the sun milk.

[Septem]

In my eyes, religion existed as a way for the ancient man to explain things, that they couldn't figure out. Those people, that "explained" things, gained power in their tribes. That lasted for a lot of time, more people "explained" stuff, more people gained power and respect. Then people started to think, investigate, sticking their nose in things, that were already explained. That angered the religious leaders. You see where this is going.

In conclusion, religion is an explanation given by man for things he couldn't understand. Science are the facts, the evidence. In an utopian world, science and free thought should replace the old religions, as they would be proven wrong.

About the morals. Those things are given to you, religious or not. You don't need to be religious to know that killing etc is wrong. Actually, God kills the most people in the Bible. Weird.

[Quadros]

And of course in Atheist tribes there would be no power struggles at all. Maybe religion did start out that way. And maybe we developed eyes in the front of our heads to better hunt. But does the fact we no longer hunt for the majority of our food make our eyes obsolete or detrimental to our development?

[Septem]

Have I said that? Nope, I haven't.

[Quadros]

The point remains that you can blame religion for the power struggles and historical deaths and what not but you know it still would have happened if religion didn't exist.

[Septem]

We are talking about the past here, sorry. You can't change that and you can't know what would happen. You can assume, and I actually agree with you, there still would be power stuggles. But for different reasons thus a different history flow etc. You can't know.

[InnerDemon]

About the morals. Those things are given to you, religious or not. You don't need to be religious to know that killing etc is wrong.

I'm not sure about that. What if you lived in a God forsaken (no pun intended) area, with savages which didn't consider killing as a crime? Would you still know that killing is wrong?

My point is that morals are indeed given to you, they are not formed by yourself, they are influences you receive from the world you live in. And I think the first to suggest the code of morals was religion (and I am aware that the major flaw of what I've just written is the fact that religion was actually created by people).

Religion is good in principle. Just like communism. It's the people who are doing it wrong.

[Quadros]

We are talking about the past here, sorry. You can't change that and you can't know what would happen. You can assume, and I actually agree with you, there still would be power stuggles. But for different reasons thus a different history flow etc. You can't know.

But you're 'know'ing what happened with no evidence to back you up, just vague conclusions based mainly on your own distaste for religion in general. As such, my theory is equally valid.

[Metalhead636]

http://www.rense.com/general69/obj.htm

Take a gander at the words of Carlin, Explosm. It pretty much says it all on religion.

[Septem]

If you look at history, people didn't consider killing a crime. Religious people and non-religious, even if not many existed.
Morals were formed in people's tribes, where people lived in a society, where more people worked as one. They didn't call those things morals, but just a way for the tribe to work and live on. Exist and survive. The first religions didn't have morals, they were known without them.

[Septem]

But you're 'know'ing what happened with no evidence to back you up, just vague conclusions based mainly on your own distaste for religion in general. As such, my theory is equally valid.

Again, I have never claimed that there would be no stuggles in atheistic tribes, you were putting words in my mouth.
And let's not talk about evidence, you have non to even start talking about. (I am talking about religion)

[Quadros]

Again, I have never claimed that there would be no stuggles in atheistic tribes, you were putting words in my mouth.
And let's not talk about evidence, you have non to even start talking about. (I am talking about religion)
And neither do you. That's the whole deal with this debate, NO-ONE has any conclusive evidence one way or the other. The things you implied in your post suggested that the reason for fights and power struggles were caused by Religion and people using religion to gain power, I said it's not that simple. If you agree that it's not that simple, then why are you arguing now and why did you imply it in the first place? Besides, my main point is that you're making assumptions based on your own bias and zero actual evidence and just because I have faith doesn't mean I have forfeited the right to require logical explanation. Because when you actually really look at it, atheism has just as little evidence for it's stance and in fact in light of the absolute vacuum of evidence one way or the other, the only logical ideology is agnosticism. But of course you're ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that God doesn't exist and I'm ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED he does. I wonder, what makes you more right than me?

(I'm not saying you're wrong, by the way. I get that you absolutely believe what you believe and I respect that.)

[exetra]

stop making these pointless athiest circlejerk threads.

[Septem]

The thing is, that religion is the one that claims something. It is as I would say that there is a flying tea-pot, orbiting around the Earth. It speaks fluent chinese and dances. Oh, and it is invisible. And if you don't sing him a song, he will eat you. There, you have no evidence that it doesn't and I have non that it does exist. But I am still the one claiming something, that's why I have to give some evidence for it.

Well we are not arguing, just debating, so no harm intended anyway. If it helps you living, go ahead, I have no problems anyway. I know you're a thinking and intelligent person, and I hope you're contributing to our society and existance. Until you don't get into my life with telling me I'm gonna burn in hell or that I should repent and force me or something, I don't really care.
Oh, and I am not ABSOLUTLEY CONVINCED that God doesn't exist. That would be irrational and subjective as evidence and proof may someday appear. And because of that, saying that anything is ABSOLUTE is just ... dumb. But until that day, I will not have faith in any form.

Enough from me.

[Quadros]

You know technically according to the UN religious intolerance as on display here is legally classed as, or at least alongside, racism. Fun stuff.

[Quadros]

The thing is, that religion is the one that claims something. It is as I would say that there is a flying tea-pot, orbiting around the Earth. It speaks fluent chinese and dances. Oh, and it is invisible. And if you don't sing him a song, he will eat you. There, you have no evidence that it doesn't and I have non that it does exist. But I am still the one claiming something, that's why I have to give some evidence for it.
Yeah congratulations you've read the God Delusion. Got any arguments of your own? And your BELIEF is that God DOESN'T exist. Therefore, following that exact argument, you have to provide EVIDENCE of his lack of existence or you're just as scientifically incorrect. As such, the scientific approach is Agnosticism. I'm not saying religion is a better approach, by the way, I'm jut saying Atheism ISN'T a better approach. They're equal.

Well we are not arguing, just debating, so no harm intended anyway. If it helps you living, go ahead, I have no problems anyway. I know you're a thinking and intelligent person, and I hope you're contributing to our society and existance. Until you don't get into my life with telling me I'm gonna burn in hell or that I should repent and force me or something, I don't really care.
Oh, and I am not ABSOLUTLEY CONVINCED that God doesn't exist. That would be irrational and subjective as evidence and proof may someday appear. And because of that, saying that anything is ABSOLUTE is just ... dumb. But until that day, I will not have faith in any form.

Enough from me.
Well good. Just accept that atheists pushing the 'THERE IS NO GOD' thing is no better.

[exetra]

MONKEYS EVOLVED FROM THE BIBLE.

[Tweek]

God is gay I sucked his dick he's a big faggot

[CnGy]

You can swallow stars?

Or did you spit them out.

[timbot]

Yeah congratulations you've read the God Delusion. Got any arguments of your own? And your BELIEF is that God DOESN'T exist. Therefore, following that exact argument, you have to provide EVIDENCE of his lack of existence or you're just as scientifically incorrect. As such, the scientific approach is Agnosticism. I'm not saying religion is a better approach, by the way, I'm jut saying Atheism ISN'T a better approach. They're equal.

You've got this all confused and warped. Atheism isn't a belief that god does not exist. It's the disbelief in God. There is a difference. "I do not believe god exists" is different from "I believe god doesn't exist."
One cannot prove that something does not exist. Only that something does. As was already pointed out, the burden of proof is on the person who says "God exists."
If someone said to you "Santa Claus" doesn't exist, I doubt you'd reply with "really you should say that it's impossible to know if he exists. If you want to say he doesn't exist, you need to give proof."
Agnosticism is no more or less scientific than atheism. They are just built on different philosophies.

Well good. Just accept that atheists pushing the 'THERE IS NO GOD' thing is no better.
I do agree with this. Religious or atheist, there's no reason to be a dick and treat other people like idiots.

[CnGy]

atheism is not a disbelief, it is lack of belief.

animals are atheists for example

[exetra]

But animals don't believe in a god, either.

[CnGy]

Is not collecting stamps a hobby? - atheist

[exetra]

But you don't want to collect stamps, either.

[Heksen]

Everybody that claims that religion exists to "control the people" is an idiot. Religion exists to explain stuff to (the ancient) men and give morals and laws to the people. If you call religion opressive because of those morals, you're an egotist.

"Lets all hate our parents, because God is false and because of that also the Ten Commandments. Lets steal everything, because of the previous reason. Let us all commit adultery, also because of that reason."
Is that how some guys here want to live?

Seriously, I prefer living in a world without science and only with religious morals instead of living in a world with only science and a lack of morals.

"Look at me, I'm an atheist. I only live once, and because of that I do what I want. I don't care if I hurt somebody else while doing something, because not hurting anyone is a silly rule made by religion to opress people. And religion is bad and hurts people."
That's the impression most atheist give me. Atheists, you're so full of irony.

[exetra]

All morals are irrational

:facts: of :science:

[Iiro]

Everybody that claims that religion exists to "control the people" is an idiot. Religion exists to explain stuff to (the ancient) men and give morals and laws to the people. If you call religion opressive because of those morals, you're an egotist.

"Lets all hate our parents, because God is false and because of that also the Ten Commandments. Lets steal everything, because of the previous reason. Let us all commit adultery, also because of that reason."
Is that how some guys here want to live.

Seriously, I prefer living in a world without science and only with religious morals instead of living in a world with only science and a lack of morals.
Well that was just retarded.

[Heksen]

Well that was just retarded.
Just like you.

[CnGy]

Hey iiro i demand you write two paragraphs illustrating your personal beliefs.

[timbot]

Atheism is not the same as being immoral or amoral. Religion does not have a monopoly on morals. I don't know what kind of atheists you're hanging out with, but either they're idiots, or you are.
I don't know if religion was created to oppress people. Hell, it's not like we can point to one thing and say "this is why religion was created on this date." However, I can say that religion has been used to oppress people.
Also, what the hell is "extreme" atheism? If you don't believe in god, you're an atheist. Otherwise, you are something else. It's not something with degrees.

[Quadros]

You've got this all confused and warped. Atheism isn't a belief that god does not exist. It's the disbelief in God. There is a difference. "I do not believe god exists" is different from "I believe god doesn't exist."
One cannot prove that something does not exist. Only that something does. As was already pointed out, the burden of proof is on the person who says "God exists."
If someone said to you "Santa Claus" doesn't exist, I doubt you'd reply with "really you should say that it's impossible to know if he exists. If you want to say he doesn't exist, you need to give proof."
Agnosticism is no more or less scientific than atheism. They are just built on different philosophies.


See now that's incorrect. 'I don't believe God exists' is (assuming I have your semantics right because there are no actual definitive differences between those two statements), if anything, Agnosticism. You don't believe he exists but you accept the possibility that he might, or you're undecided about his existence. Atheism goes further, it's 'I believe God doesn't exist'. It's a belief as deeply ingrained as a belief in a God with no room for ifs or maybes. What it really boils down to is the difference between belief and opinion. You can be agnostic and say that in your opinion God probably doesn't exist but that you're not sure of that, that your belief is that there's a possibility that he might and there's no definitive answer as of yet. Just like it's my belief that God exists but my opinion that everyone has a fundamental right to their beliefs within reason. Opinions can be shaped and changed by the environment we live in and our interactions with others. Beliefs are far harder, if not impossible, to change. They're part of who we are.

[Quadros]

Atheism is not the same as being immoral or amoral. Religion does not have a monopoly on morals. I don't know what kind of atheists you're hanging out with, but either they're idiots, or you are.
I don't know if religion was created to oppress people. Hell, it's not like we can point to one thing and say "this is why religion was created on this date." However, I can say that religion has been used to oppress people.
Also, what the hell is "extreme" atheism? If you don't believe in god, you're an atheist. Otherwise, you are something else. It's not something with degrees.

I agree with that, and in the same vein I think we can agree that atheism and agnosticism do not hold a monopoly on science. Extreme Atheism is the people who go around shouting 'GOD DOESN'T EXIST' or burning churches or actively seeking to purge religion from the earth. (obviously those are all different degrees of extremism).

[SODA]

So how bout those tits on the other page?

[Quadros]

Never seen anything like them, huh SODA?

[CnGy]

obviously mary's tits

[Heksen]

Religion does not have a monopoly on morals.
It doesn't, indeed. But atheist don't have that either.

I don't know what kind of atheists you're hanging out with, but either they're idiots, or you are.
Yes, they are idiots. Discussion with them is impossible. The only argument they have is "God doesn't exist".

I don't know if religion was created to oppress people.
I don't know either, but I doubt it.

However, I can say that religion has been used to oppress people.
Sad but true.

Also, what the hell is "extreme" atheism?
Antitheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism)

http://www.rense.com/general69/obj.htm
-> A good example of an "extreme atheist"/antitheist.

[Iiro]

See now that's incorrect. 'I don't believe God exists' is (assuming I have your semantics right because there are no actual definitive differences between those two statements)
There is a difference. 'I believe there is no God' would imply me having some knowledge on the existence of God or me presenting it as some kind of fact. 'I don't believe there is a God' just means that because there's no evidence supporting God existing I do not believe it. And yes Atheism is the second one. The absence of belief in the existence of deities.

[CnGy]

it's a state of naturrrrre

iunno if I'm sure about that though.

maybe animals know more than we do

maybe the reason they don't talk is because they are direct-linked to god through some sort of chat

[InnerDemon]

There is a difference. 'I believe there is no God' would imply me having some knowledge on the existence of God or me presenting it as some kind of fact. 'I don't believe there is a God' just means that because there's no evidence supporting God existing I do not believe it. And yes Atheism is the second one. The absence of belief in the existence of deities.

But the "don't believe" comes off as "I assume" which automatically implies there might just be a God (even if it's hardly credible) which kind of nullifies the idea of Atheism.

[Iiro]

But the "don't believe" comes off as "I assume" which automatically implies there might just be a God (even if it's hardly credible) which kind of nullifies the idea of Atheism.
Atheism is agnostic to an extent.

[exetra]

maybe the reason they don't talk is because they are direct-linked to god through some sort of chat

So that's who this "Stranger" on omegle is :aaa:

[Clerlic]

All this arguing is useless. Religion will eventually disappear due to advancement.

[Ocellatus]

God is gay I sucked his dick he's a big faggot

God watched me masturbate a few times before.

[timbot]

See now that's incorrect. 'I don't believe God exists' is (assuming I have your semantics right because there are no actual definitive differences between those two statements), if anything, Agnosticism. You don't believe he exists but you accept the possibility that he might, or you're undecided about his existence. Atheism goes further, it's 'I believe God doesn't exist'. It's a belief as deeply ingrained as a belief in a God with no room for ifs or maybes.
Your definition of agnosticism is wrong here. The big difference between atheism and agnosticism is and epistemological one. Agnosticism isn't disbelief with the possibility that god might or exist and it's not just being undecided. Agnosticism is a belief just as much as atheism is in the way you're claiming. It's based on the philosophical belief that we cannot know if god exists.
I am an atheist. I do not believe there is a god. Just like a I do not believe there are aliens living amongst us and I do not believe in dragons or unicorns. However, that doesn't mean that at some later time I won't change my mind. Again, this is getting into epistemology and how do we know what we know. I don't run around putting disclaimers on everything I don't believe in to say "I don't believe, but I could later." There's no need. If some conclusive evidence comes to light to show god exists, then I will stop being an atheist. I'd be highly skeptical, but if the evidence were right, I'd change my view.

But the "don't believe" comes off as "I assume" which automatically implies there might just be a God (even if it's hardly credible) which kind of nullifies the idea of Atheism.

How does "don't believe" equate with "assume"? There might just be a god. There might just be any number of things. We can look all around us all day just making up things that "might just be." But, we have to go with the knowledge we have. Yes, there is that chance that new knowledge will arise; it happens all the time. However, to put so much emphasis on what might later be proven true while casting aside what we do know, is silly.

[HailCrest]

Agnosticism (Greek: α- a-, without + γνώσις gnōsis, knowledge; after Gnosticism) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims... is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove. ... Agnosticism refers to knowledge, while atheism and theism refer to belief.

Atheism can be either the rejection of theism, or the assertion that deities do not exist. In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.

Quadros is right.

Essentially agnosticism is "I don't know whether -insert deity here- exists or it doesn't and I can't prove it". Atheism is, on the other hand, "I believe it doesn't, period". It's the direct opposite of theism, which is "I believe it does, period." Theism doesn't accept the probability that it doesn't exist, while atheism doesn't accept the probability that it does. Agnosticism is the middle ground.

[Ocellatus]

Where does Nihilism come into that?

[n3fast]

Seriously, I prefer living in a world without science and only with religious morals instead of living in a world with only science and a lack of morals.

Wow. Would you please throw your computer out the window NOW? What are you going to say next? "What has science ever done for us?" Besides tripling our life expectancy? Besides making pretty much every thing you use in your daily life?

If that is you being serious I would never want to hear your jokes.

"Look at me, I'm an atheist. I only live once, and because of that I do what I want. I don't care if I hurt somebody else while doing something, because not hurting anyone is a silly rule made by religion to opress people. And religion is bad and hurts people."
That's the impression most atheist give me. Atheists, you're so full of irony.


What a warped and laughable view.

[Heksen]

Wow. Would you please throw your computer out the window NOW? What are you going to say next? "What has science ever done for us?" Besides tripling our life expectancy? Besides making pretty much every thing you use in your daily life? I'm not saying science is bad. I ment that if you leave religion, then you also throw the morals of religion out. Science doesn't have morals. So once you completly leave religion and "join the ranks of Science", you also leave most morals.

Seriously, I prefer living in a world without science and only with religious morals instead of living in a world with only science and a lack of morals.
This time, I'll say this in a different manner:
I prefer working hard for hours on a field and going to church every sunday. Why? Because when I'm dying, I'll realise that my children (and possibly other people) could survive because of my hard work. Also, after all the hard work I did during my lifetime, I'll go to a bright place where I can relax forever. I would feel satisfied in general.
I don't prefer living in a "robotic" city for 150 years, living without a purpose and get everything done for me by machines. And next to that, risk to get buttraped/robbed/beaten up in every alley I go into.

[Laurence]

I'm not saying science is bad. I ment that if you leave religion, then you also throw the morals of religion out. Science doesn't have morals. So once you completly leave religion and "join the ranks of Science", you also leave most morals.

Do you really think that a society would advance to this point without developing some sort of moral/ethical standards?

Even so, over the years there have been innumberable immoral practices undertaken by religious institutions or people acting on behalf of a religion. You can't herald religions as being bastions of moral integrity when they are responsible for plenty of them.

[InnerDemon]

"What has science ever done for us?" Besides tripling our life expectancy?
What a warped and laughable view.

Who the fuck wanted to live that much anyway? Also, people used to live longer back in the days. Not to mention the people from the Bible.

[Ocellatus]

With the power of god, you too can live 900 years. Maybe you can summon bears to mess up any youths that are harassing you, if that's what you're into.

[Laurence]

Who the fuck wanted to live that much anyway? Also, people used to live longer back in the days. Not to mention the people from the Bible.

Ah, firstly, no they didn't. You may wish to go here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#Variation_over_time) and look at the table provided.

And I'm not even going to touch the Bible thing.

[InnerDemon]

Well, except the part where I claimed people used to live longer (which you proved wrong), was sarcastic. Although, to some extent, I really believe I wouldn't want to live 100 years or so. However, I do admit that science has helped us.

[Clerlic]

Yet you want to live for eternity in a garden.

[exetra]

Gardens are pretty badass, man.

[John Travolta]

And neither do you. That's the whole deal with this debate, NO-ONE has any conclusive evidence one way or the other. The things you implied in your post suggested that the reason for fights and power struggles were caused by Religion and people using religion to gain power, I said it's not that simple. If you agree that it's not that simple, then why are you arguing now and why did you imply it in the first place? Besides, my main point is that you're making assumptions based on your own bias and zero actual evidence and just because I have faith doesn't mean I have forfeited the right to require logical explanation. Because when you actually really look at it, atheism has just as little evidence for it's stance and in fact in light of the absolute vacuum of evidence one way or the other, the only logical ideology is agnosticism. But of course you're ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that God doesn't exist and I'm ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED he does. I wonder, what makes you more right than me?

(I'm not saying you're wrong, by the way. I get that you absolutely believe what you believe and I respect that.)Yeah congratulations you've read the God Delusion. Got any arguments of your own? And your BELIEF is that God DOESN'T exist. Therefore, following that exact argument, you have to provide EVIDENCE of his lack of existence or you're just as scientifically incorrect. As such, the scientific approach is Agnosticism. I'm not saying religion is a better approach, by the way, I'm jut saying Atheism ISN'T a better approach. They're equal.

Well good. Just accept that atheists pushing the 'THERE IS NO GOD' thing is no better.



CAPS ITT

[John Travolta]

Do you BELIEVE there is no GOD? I think that GOD DOESN'T exist.

[exetra]

HEIL ALLAH, ACHTUNG JUDEN!

[Clerlic]

Heksen, you should join the amish community, it is your dream, right?

[Heksen]

No, Clerlic. I'm not that Christian. I'm a Heathen with Christian influences.

[JaydenB]

I believe (in my opinion) that religions were created by people who wanted to make money off them. I hear the christian religion has such a massive amount of wealth that it's not funny.

[Heksen]

I believe (in my opinion) that religions were created by people who wanted to make money off them.
Oh, you're so smart.
Learn some history, please.

[MrChrisso]

THE MATRIX HAS YOU

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http://designcrack.com/v2/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/crying-baby.jpg

[BlackHood]

I see your point but disagree.

[Ocellatus]

Religion has good and bad aspects, but I don't think it's as relevant as it might have been in the past. Nobody here is wrong, it's just that other people think they're wrong.

[laugh]

You've got this all confused and warped. Atheism isn't a belief that god does not exist. It's the disbelief in God. There is a difference. "I do not believe god exists" is different from "I believe god doesn't exist."
No, according to english, you just said the same things twice with different wording.

[timbot]

Ok, first, what is a belief:
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

The first statement--"I do not believe god exists"--says that I have an absence of belief. To use the example given by the dictionary definition: "God exists," is a statement unworthy of belief.
The second statement--"I believe god doesn't exist"--would have a connotation more like Quadros talked about. It could give the impression that I have faith in something that cannot be proven. Which, is true, but only because non-existence cannot be proven. To say it in that way is what leads one to argue--as Quadros did--that there is some burden on me to prove the lack of god's existence. That just isn't the way it works. If it were, I could make up any claim and say that my baseless belief is just as valid as anyone's lack of belief. I could say that white people are superior to black people. White people are born with something extra that black people don't have. The burden would now be on you to give proof that such a thing does not exist. You could prove in every known aspect, white and black people are equal, but that still wouldn't disprove my claim. That's the kind of argument Quadros was making against atheism.
The point is, my atheism is not a belief it is a lack of belief.

[CnGy]

God exists. Why else would there be lightning.

He must be angry!

[exetra]

But then He makes a rainbow because He's merciful :hmm:

[Sequence2Destruction]

No, according to english, you just said the same things twice with different wording.

I think he's trying to say that you can believe that there is a god, but not follow any religion because you dont agree with them. He just said it like a retard.

[Magnifisense]

I'm an ex-Christian turned agnostic, so a lot of my thoughts on religion are probably going to reference Christianity.


or promote a common ground for a larger power to control i.e. the pope, a shah, rabbi, preist, the Dali Lama (probably spelled wrong but you get the point), or to just fill the coffers of someone who is already rich?


The Christian Church underwent a great reformation after a lot of corruption (which is where we get Catholics/Protestants). Priests would literally get people to give them money to supposedly lessen the time that they would have to spend in purgatory. While this went against the fundamentals of the Bible, it had not yet been translated from Latin, so very few people actually grasped the basic concepts of Christianity. The Catholic Church was never founded on the basis of power or money, but absolute power corrupts absolutely.


Or is it something that is true, something that we heathens should fear and respect. Is there a hell? Is there a god watching us like a perverbial Santa Clause to make sure we're being naughty or nice? ... Is it like a game show in which if I choose the wrong answer I am sent to hell?


I live on the basic premise that there is probably a higher deity. He probably doesn't talk to us at all, and if he does, we can't ever know who he's really talking to. If he created us, he probably didn't do it so that he could send us to burn and suffer for all of eternity. He probably created us so that we could join him in his kingdom (for lack of a better/less Christian world).

[Quadros]

Ok, first, what is a belief:
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

The first statement--"I do not believe god exists"--says that I have an absence of belief. To use the example given by the dictionary definition: "God exists," is a statement unworthy of belief.
The second statement--"I believe god doesn't exist"--would have a connotation more like Quadros talked about. It could give the impression that I have faith in something that cannot be proven. Which, is true, but only because non-existence cannot be proven. To say it in that way is what leads one to argue--as Quadros did--that there is some burden on me to prove the lack of god's existence. That just isn't the way it works. If it were, I could make up any claim and say that my baseless belief is just as valid as anyone's lack of belief. I could say that white people are superior to black people. White people are born with something extra that black people don't have. The burden would now be on you to give proof that such a thing does not exist. You could prove in every known aspect, white and black people are equal, but that still wouldn't disprove my claim. That's the kind of argument Quadros was making against atheism.
The point is, my atheism is not a belief it is a lack of belief.

I would say if anything agnosticism is the 'lack of belief' if anything, atheism is an active belief in the fact that God doesn't exist. Where I disagree with you is in the assertion that such a 'lack of belief' could ever exonerate a party from having to back up anything they say. You can't say 'I believe God doesn't exist' or 'I don't believe god exists' (IDENTICAL meanings) and then sit back and place the onus on the other party to prove their case. This is where your racism parallel falls apart. If someone's going to say 'I think White people are born superior to black people' it is then on that person to back that statement up with evidence, if they're trying to convince people of it. If you're going to say 'I believe that white people and black people are equal' and you're trying to convince people of that then it's once again on you to prove it, not a difficult task since a simple anatomical study will show that minus pigmentation differences and other superfluous aesthetic differences the human body is near identical irrelevant of race. And since we're talking about a difference between two types of people which manifests itself in an obviously corporeal manner a claim that the difference might be incorporeal can be safely written off as straw clutching.

Ignoring the fact that this argument is, in essence, comparing religion to racism (I mean come on, was that necessary? It's pretty desperate.) the reason the above argument can be distinguished from the God argument is that religious argument has ALWAYS maintained that God is incorporeal and that seeking evidence of his existence in the material plane is both a lesson in futility and missing the point entirely. It's true that many beliefs can be created with zero evidence but the odds of someone actually developing that bona fide belief is incredibly remote and even if someone did, I said 'everyone has a fundamental right to their beliefs within reason'. Is racist belief reasonable? Absolutely not, in my opinion. Is belief in God reasonable? Yes, in my opinion, and billions and billions of people in hundreds of cultures and societies have my back on this. Even if I felt the racist WAS entitled to that belief, they'd only be entitled to the belief. Not an expression of it, or the advancement of it in society. Any expression of a belief is a right only exercisable if it is made with all due respect to others and their rights to reasonable beliefs.

My eventual, somewhat rambling point, is that all the religious people in any of these debates say is 'I personally believe in God'. They never make an attack on atheism or agnosticism, they only defend against it. It's atheists, in almost every single instance, who instigate the attacks, slinging mud and shit at religion and believing they're somehow justified in doing it. Well they're not. And when you start ASSERTING that your belief is correct and that another is wrong, that's where the evidential burden originates. Because no religious person here has asserted anything against atheist belief.

I'm such a JonC.

[Magnifisense]

Quadros - Agnosticism is greatly debated as far as what it means, just as atheism is.

Agnosticism is usually defined as "The belief that there is not enough evidence to prove or disprove the presence of a higher deity"

Whereas atheism seems to be more along the lines of "We're right. Look at all this scientific jargon. Suck it."

[Oofie]

And Christianity = 'We're right. Look at this essential lack of anything that could back up our beliefs. Suck it'

[Magnifisense]

That's the point Agnosticism is the only way to go. If the God these people believe in exists, he will forgive me for questioning his existence, no?

[Quadros]

Quadros - Agnosticism is greatly debated as far as what it means, just as atheism is.

Agnosticism is usually defined as "The belief that there is not enough evidence to prove or disprove the presence of a higher deity"

Whereas atheism seems to be more along the lines of "We're right. Look at all this scientific jargon. Suck it."

Yes, I know. Did you skip over the bit where I said that, or something? In the main, Agnosticism is the belief that God may or may not exist, atheism is the belief that God doesn't exist.

It may seem crude but I liken agnosticism a bit to bisexuality. You can prefer one side or the other but fundamentally you remain unconvinced to join the camp of either side of either and believe that in joining one side or the other you'd be loosing something.

And yes, in this analogy religion can be homosexuality.

[Heksen]

And Christianity = 'We're right. Look at this essential lack of anything that could back up our beliefs. Suck it'
Atheism can't prove either that there isn't a god.

[Oofie]

Never said it could.

[Quadros]

The situation is that there is no evidence for anything. Agnostics say that without any evidence nothing can be decided. Religion claims that they doesn't NEED evidence because they have faith and that their belief is beyond the realm of science. Atheism claims that they don't NEED evidence because they're asserting an absence of something. Neither such claim from either side is rational, only agnosticism really is. Thus we have a WWI style situation, where anyone who attacks can be cut down by their own mirrored argumentative holes and the best thing to do would be to just live and let live except of course we've dug the trenches now, haven't we?

Basically either side trying to proselytise the other is a big waste of time and effort guaranteed only to offend, and we should all just accept each other's personal beliefs without judgement or prejudice.

[Heksen]

And so, thanks to Quadros, this thread is concluded.

[CnGy]

Atheists do have evidence. It's called religion being patently false.

It was my understanding that atheism really is in relation to established religions. While it took a more agnostic approach towards theism in general, basically saying, "well we would believe that, but we aren't going to just because."

[exetra]

Religion is meaningless arbitrary crap invented by people to control people but faith itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. Are we done yet?

[timbot]

I'm not trying to proselytize anyone here. I'm only trying to clear up where the burden of proof lies. It is not on atheists. They are not being irrational at all. In fact, the one thing they are being is rational. It is rational to believe what can be proven and not believe what cannot be proven. By the argument Quadros is making, anyone who doesn't believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy is irrational. And the only rational choice is to say "I'm not sure if they exist."
Strangely, Quadros was quite correct in pointing out where my racism argument fails. But, he confused the sides. The person claiming the inequality of the races was representative of the religious person. And just as you said, it is the onus of the person making the claim to prove it. Like it or not, an atheist can say "I don't believe" and that's it. That's all an atheist has to say. It doesn't make the atheist right by any means. But, that is all that is needed. Just like a defendant in a trial only HAS to say "I am innocent." It is the job of the prosecution to prove the person is guilty. Of course, the defendant often does say something in his defense. This is because the prosecution does have evidence to suggest the defendant is guilty. The defendant, then, must respond to this evidence and give the jury reason to doubt the evidence. The defendant doesn't actually have to prove anything, only prevent the prosecution from proving anything. (I realize the amount of proof needed to prosecute someone is different depending on the type of case, but hopefully you can stll follow the analogy). The defendant doesn't have to prove he wasn't at the scene of the crime, the prosecution has to prove that he was.
It doesn't matter who starts the argument between two people, those who believe in god are the prosecution and atheists are the defense. If an atheist walks up to someone and says "You're a Christian? Wow, what a fucking idiot. You know god doesn't exist, right?" He's being a douche, and deserves to be punched in the face. However, he doesn't have to prove anything else. It's the same as if I walked up to a cop investigating a murder and said "Hey, I didn't kill that woman." A trial would not then have to start in which I must prove I didn't do it. The onus would not be on me because I said the first word. It would still be up to the prosecution, the people said something did happen, not the person who said something didn't happen.
I can ASSERT as many negatives as I desire and I still don't have to prove anything. If I say "a ninth planet does not exist," then anyone who says I'm wrong must prove that such a planet does exist. If the proof exists and can be shown, then I am wrong. If the proof does not exist--as is the case with the god's existence. Then I am right. Of course, I could later be proven wrong--the same as I conceivably could when it comes to god. If that proof comes up and I refuse to believe it, then I'm just being stubborn. The same is true of any atheist who would continue to say god does not exist in the face of real evidence.

[WoeStorm]

Haven't the discussions in this thread been done in the dozens of other religion threads that were made?

[Clerlic]

Clearly, the previous threads haven't reached a conclusion that all sides agreed upon. This time, maybe?

[InnerDemon]

I think exetra nailed it. Christian pun intended.

[Adamski]

Shhhhhhhhhhh ._.


(To prevent punishment: This is actually a contribution, a Zen contribution of sorts)

[JaydenB]

Oh, you're so smart.
Learn some history, please.
I choose to believe what I want to believe, thank you very much.
Also, your post sounded very smart. Is it because I insinuated that your belief is a scam?

[Quadros]

I'm not trying to proselytize anyone here. I'm only trying to clear up where the burden of proof lies. It is not on atheists. They are not being irrational at all. In fact, the one thing they are being is rational. It is rational to believe what can be proven and not believe what cannot be proven. By the argument Quadros is making, anyone who doesn't believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy is irrational. And the only rational choice is to say "I'm not sure if they exist."
Strangely, Quadros was quite correct in pointing out where my racism argument fails. But, he confused the sides. The person claiming the inequality of the races was representative of the religious person. And just as you said, it is the onus of the person making the claim to prove it. Like it or not, an atheist can say "I don't believe" and that's it. That's all an atheist has to say. It doesn't make the atheist right by any means. But, that is all that is needed. Just like a defendant in a trial only HAS to say "I am innocent." It is the job of the prosecution to prove the person is guilty. Of course, the defendant often does say something in his defense. This is because the prosecution does have evidence to suggest the defendant is guilty. The defendant, then, must respond to this evidence and give the jury reason to doubt the evidence. The defendant doesn't actually have to prove anything, only prevent the prosecution from proving anything. (I realize the amount of proof needed to prosecute someone is different depending on the type of case, but hopefully you can stll follow the analogy). The defendant doesn't have to prove he wasn't at the scene of the crime, the prosecution has to prove that he was.
It doesn't matter who starts the argument between two people, those who believe in god are the prosecution and atheists are the defense. If an atheist walks up to someone and says "You're a Christian? Wow, what a fucking idiot. You know god doesn't exist, right?" He's being a douche, and deserves to be punched in the face. However, he doesn't have to prove anything else. It's the same as if I walked up to a cop investigating a murder and said "Hey, I didn't kill that woman." A trial would not then have to start in which I must prove I didn't do it. The onus would not be on me because I said the first word. It would still be up to the prosecution, the people said something did happen, not the person who said something didn't happen.
I can ASSERT as many negatives as I desire and I still don't have to prove anything. If I say "a ninth planet does not exist," then anyone who says I'm wrong must prove that such a planet does exist. If the proof exists and can be shown, then I am wrong. If the proof does not exist--as is the case with the god's existence. Then I am right. Of course, I could later be proven wrong--the same as I conceivably could when it comes to god. If that proof comes up and I refuse to believe it, then I'm just being stubborn. The same is true of any atheist who would continue to say god does not exist in the face of real evidence.

See now I think this is the crutch of the issue. I think, and legal reasoning ha my back here, that it's for the person making the claim, or the attack, to provide evidence, and for that reason Team Religion or Team Atheist can hold the burden, depending on who starts the debate. The reason the defendant in a criminal trial does not have the evidential burden or the burden of proof is not because he's arguing an absence of guilt or crime or intention or whatever, but because he did not instigate the proceedings. If you take for example Tort Law (civil law) if a person claims that a party negligently omitted to carry out a duty it is still for the party claiming to PROVE that they did not carry out the appropriate actions. Even further, in property law if a party is claiming that a legal right over something does not exist and that they deserve rights over a property improperly held by another it is upon them to provide evidence of the lack of existence of that right. Of course that's far easier at law but still the fact remains, if an atheist claims that God doesn't exist, and he started the debate, it is upon him to back that claim up. Your example of talking to the investigative officer is irrelevant because it's judged based upon what happens within the context of the court. Who the prosecutor/claimant is and who the defendant is.

Likewise your analogy between God and the various mythical beings is erroneous in that the people responsible for the continuation of those characters have almost universally debunked them and explained the supposedly magical events, exposing them as, in effect, a hoax. No adult (apart from Will Ferrell in that one film) actually believes, in their heart, in their existence. The same of course can not be said of God and even the most scathing atheist would probably not truly claim that the Church is a big hoax and that all the priests and the pope are in on it, for example.

If we are to draw a parallel, the best is to Aliens. There's no concrete proof of their existence. There's some compelling logical argument, and some interesting circumstantial and anecdotal evidence, but nothing even coming close to proof. Is it therefore 'rational' to write them off? Is it rational to just assume they do exist? or is it rational, given the evidential vacuum, to accept that at present there's no way to know for sure?

I have said so many times that Religion is not a logical belief, and that it defies pure logic, and that I'm ok with that because a whole load of things that very clearly exist in the material universe also defy logic. I will say that atheism is just as illogical a view, and just as acceptable. If we could all accept that compromise and accept our differences as attributes as opposed to detriments, I believe our entire species, and our entire world, would benefit. And they'd put my face on coins and shit.

[John Travolta]

Shut the fuck up.

[Quadros]

Poor Copyfag, threatened by the big words and complex sentences. :hmm:

[John Travolta]

No, it just gets so old you try to be right when nobody gives a shit. And then the people who don't know any better become trolls and start stupid arguments that doesn't matter at all.

Get over yourselves, people, especially you, Quadros.

[CnGy]

hey quadros, this is not a thread about the dynamics of discussion.

jackass.

"it defies pure logic."

You don't even know what that is. Pure logic is about as existent as god.

[John Travolta]

Goddamnit fiend guy.

[Quadros]

No but it's a discussion and the dynamics of discussion apply to it, don't they? I'm sorry that you can't get over the fact that everything I've said has made sense and I'm pretty sure that the 'pure logic' thing was pretty much my point. If you can't see past your petty issues with me enough to at least accept that my views are coherent and reasonable then it's not me who needs to get over themself, is it? I mean I'm sorry that we're using the general forum of a discussion board for a general discussion, maybe we all ought to go back to making real life threads and pretend someone gives a shit about or even read our post while ignoring everyone else's 'contributions' in your excitement to share another probably untrue anecdote? Or we could all marvel at something that's happened,discuss it's relevance and turn this forum into a glorified version of Fark? Or, and this is just a suggestion, we could carry on using the GF for it's general purpose and you could stop trying to pass your oh so important judgement on what posts and threads deserve to be here and start sucking my dick?

[SlothMan]

Guyz i jus wana let u no that jesus is gr8!!!

[WoeStorm]

No but it's a discussion and the dynamics of discussion apply to it, don't they? I'm sorry that you can't get over the fact that everything I've said has made sense and I'm pretty sure that the 'pure logic' thing was pretty much my point. If you can't see past your petty issues with me enough to at least accept that my views are coherent and reasonable then it's not me who needs to get over themself, is it? I mean I'm sorry that we're using the general forum of a discussion board for a general discussion, maybe we all ought to go back to making real life threads and pretend someone gives a shit about or even read our post while ignoring everyone else's 'contributions' in your excitement to share another probably untrue anecdote? Or we could all marvel at something that's happened,discuss it's relevance and turn this forum into a glorified version of Fark? Or, and this is just a suggestion, we could carry on using the GF for it's general purpose and you could stop trying to pass your oh so important judgement on what posts and threads deserve to be here and start sucking my dick?

Man, I liked it better when you just said "No you're wrong" and then insulted them.

God doesn't exist etc etc

[Quadros]

No you're wrong >insult<!

[John Travolta]

Your originality is only surpassed by your stupidity Quadros.

[Iiro]

Atheism means not believing in deities. It doesn't claim to know facts about anything we can't know anything about. It also doesn't discard the possibility of a judeo-christian god existing. The point is that due to a lack of evidence regarding it's existence, the probability is so minimal (because there's an endless amount of other possibilities that are just as valid) that it's not worth considering and we can just assume that it doesn't. If some evidence were to surface then views would be altered based on that.

There's a very thin line between Agnosticism and Atheism and Atheism is infact Agnostic when it comes to things we can't know anything about (anything else would be Idiotism). Agnosticism pretty much is the stupid little brother of Atheism who doesn't understand stuff yet.

[Tweek]

I think you are all wrong and atheism is the belief that no deity exists.

[Danidan]

I'm pretty sure that religion is just to keep people partially sane, whilst screwing up others.
I mean, how many wars have erupted because of religious views?
It's pathetic.
If people don't like other's peoples views on religion, why kill the f***ers?
I say let them bask in their views in peace
I'll watch and see how it turns out. I'll instruct my children and my childrens children to see if the religions meant anything
Might as well. Religion seems to not want to show it exists while WE are alive.

[Quadros]

Your originality is only surpassed by your stupidity Quadros.

Hey I can't help that my views are unoriginal that's why it's called common sense. (Yes, I know, but I flipped it, so suck it.)


I'm pretty sure that religion is just to keep people partially sane, whilst screwing up others.
I mean, how many wars have erupted because of religious views?
It's pathetic.
If people don't like other's peoples views on religion, why kill the f***ers?
I say let them bask in their views in peace
I'll watch and see how it turns out. I'll instruct my children and my childrens children to see if the religions meant anything
Might as well. Religion seems to not want to show it exists while WE are alive.
For about the billionth time I'm pretty sure you're blaming Religion for what are effectively human failings. It was just used as an excuse, if you want to discredit every thing unfairly used as an excuse to start a war you can also throw away democracy, combating terrorism, liberty, national security, global security, protection from the drugs trade and countless other things.

[WoeStorm]

I wouldn't mind throwing out Racism and Greed, Quadros.

[InnerDemon]

God is dead (http://forums.explosm.net/showthread.php?t=51328) so this debate is pointless >:

[Quadros]

I wouldn't mind throwing out Racism and Greed, Quadros.

Those would be the actual reasons, not the excuses though.

[Ocellatus]

I'm not going to lie, I didn't read any of your posts, apart from that one. If people are dicks, then they'll be dicks regardless of their beliefs, but we can at least strip them of their justifications for dickery.

[Quadros]

But is that justifiable? Once again, they use our very principles as justifications, things we hold important and dear, to hide their true motives. We can't just destroy all of that because the immoral might use them as a shield. We should instead identify when they are doing that, and prevent them from besmirching our values to their own end.

[exetra]

Goddamnit fiend guy.

thread should have ended here :cool:

[Ocellatus]

We should instead identify when they are doing that, and prevent them from besmirching our values to their own end.

Humans are genetically designed to be dicks, there's not a lot we can do about that until religion shuts the hell up and lets us get on with genetic engineering.

[Quadros]

So you'd like to breed a fundamental part of who we are out of us instead of letting us attempt to do it naturally? Because you know as well as I do that if you introduce a person into today's society who has no ambition, no ruthlessness, no selfishness and no prejudice, all of those flaws bred out, he'd fail in society and never thrive. he wouldn't be the 'fittest' because disgustingly all of those things are positive attributes in today's society. Thus it's society that needs to change. That can't be achieved by science alone or religion alone, the first step towards progress must be made through unity and mutual respect and acceptance. Otherwise you're still setting two parties against each other, and in such a circumstance the very traits which become warmongering, decietful and ruthless will undoubtedly thrive.

[WoeStorm]

I think Religion and Science will always be against each other.

[CnGy]

a block of text is not coherent

idiot

that is to say, any point you make, is ruined, by how you present it, both visually and vocally.

[InnerDemon]

I think Religion and Science will always be against each other.

Not necessarily. They could go hand in hand if people weren't so damn narrow-minded. How does the existence of God exclude science or its discoveries (or the other way round, for that matter)? For me it's perfectly acceptable that God exists and the laws of Physics apply, for instance. It's just another trait of the world created by the supreme being.

[CnGy]

This just in: Most people who are religious accept science.

It's a case of I WILL FOCUS ON THE RETARDS OF A GIVEN DEMOGRAPHIC TO PROVE MY POINT.

[Jackoff Shitler]

Religion is so last century.

[Clerlic]

So you'd like to breed a fundamental part of who we are out of us instead of letting us attempt to do it naturally? Because you know as well as I do that if you introduce a person into today's society who has no ambition, no ruthlessness, no selfishness and no prejudice, all of those flaws bred out, he'd fail in society and never thrive. he wouldn't be the 'fittest' because disgustingly all of those things are positive attributes in today's society. Thus it's society that needs to change. That can't be achieved by science alone or religion alone, the first step towards progress must be made through unity and mutual respect and acceptance. Otherwise you're still setting two parties against each other, and in such a circumstance the very traits which become warmongering, decietful and ruthless will undoubtedly thrive.

We are animals and most things we do every day are not "natural". Our bodies are not fit for well-being and long life, they are fit for reproduction and death for evolution to happen. The fundamental part that you're talking about is the animal part which often dominates, like for example the R-Complex in our brains, which can make us do irrational things.
Science alone can and will radically change society to the point that all those traits would be unnecessary, along with introducing means of "breeding them out". Surely it's not a one-step process, but evolution never is. Genetic engineering, symbiosis between man and machine, playing "God", it's all necessary for our survival and will inevitably happen. That's why I think religion will disappear. Can you imagine a super-intelligent individual of a species that cannot die and does not need anything at all praying for something?

[Jackoff Shitler]

We will all pray when the machines of doom take over this planet in the nearby future.

[Ocellatus]

Just kill 'em all and let god sort it out.