Man beaten for defending his rights

[Remote]

An Arizona pastor – Tasered, bloodied by broken glass and sporting 11 stitches in his head – claims his injuries came from being stopped at a Border Patrol checkpoint 75 miles inside the U.S. and then being battered by police for refusing to allow agents to search his vehicle.
The incident earlier this week highlights tension between constitutional rights, the issue of border security and a controversial Supreme Court ruling that grants an exceptional level of police authority near the Mexican border.
Pastor Steven Anderson of Faithful Word Baptist Church in Tempe claims he did nothing to deserve his eventual arrest and believes that when he refused to allow the search of his car he was simply standing up for his Fourth Amendment rights, which protect him against unreasonable search without a warrant.

Full Story Here: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=95300

Do you think the attack was justified? Or do you think this was a case of police brutality?

[InnerDemon]

This whole situation could have been avoided if he had simply allowed the policemen to search his car (given that the dog really did give signals of having discovered something fishy). I don't agree with this attitude of "It's ma' goddamn riteh!" when it comes to simple issues such as searching your car. After all, refusing to give allowance may only make the policemen to think you actually have something to hide. In the end he defended his right, but got hit from the left.

[BreakTheWalls]

He had the right sure, but what good did it really do for him? If he really didn't do anything wrong, then he would have had nothing to worry about.

I hate it when incidents like these occur. I remember a story a while back about this guy getting killed because he was running from the police. Why on earth would he do that? Because he was an illegal immigrant. Instead he got murdered for refusing to cooperate with police.

Yes it's harsh but even if the police is wrong, you do not fuck with them.

[InnerDemon]

Yes it's harsh but even if the police is wrong, you do not fuck with them.

It's hard to say they are wrong. Of course, in some cases it's easy to delimit between police brutality and "they were just doing their job". But in the example you gave, the policemen really did their job. How could they know the guy was not a drug dealer? Or a murder? They couldn't have let him get away just because "oh, I won't shoot 'cause maybe he's not a bad guy". He's guilty until proven otherwise. And so was our pastor, with the sole difference that he could have simply cooperated, as he had nothing to hide. Or did he?:heya:

[ultrasoundchick]

If you have nothing to hide, why be an ass about a search? He must have been making quite a commotion to be "extracted" from his vehicle by the state police. The pastor's reasoning seems flawed to me. I think he deserves the treatment he recieved.

[SODA]

If you have nothing to hide, why be an ass about a search? He must have been making quite a commotion to be "extracted" from his vehicle by the state police. The pastor's reasoning seems flawed to me. I think he deserves the treatment he recieved.

Because, we have the right to privacy in our bill of rights. I'm glad this guy stood up for his rights, but he is a douchenozzle, he preaches that Obama is satan, and that the jews are the religion of the antichrist.

[Astronaut]

From what you gave me.
I said yes.

Nothing to hide, nothing to fear. Pick your battles.

[BlackHood]

It definitely appears that some people are simply more prone to fighting for stuff, even if its stupid than others.

Standing up for what you believe in is all well and good, but if the police see a threat, they're gonna act accordingly.

[SODA]

Standing up for what you believe in is all well and good, but if the police see a threat, they're gonna act accordingly.

Which is what people like this guy are helping to stop.

Someone refusing to bow down and gargle a policemans balls is not a threat. They just don't want to gargle balls.

[ultrasoundchick]

To clarify my point: the officers said the drug-sniffing dog alerted them to the preachers car. If you weren't hiding drugs, why not let them search? The dog making an alert for drugs gave them probable cause to search, in my opinion.

[DoctorButt]

He had a right to privacy. But he's a dick and so are the cops. Sure he 'defended' his rights, he got a beating for it.

[SODA]

To clarify my point: the officers said the drug-sniffing dog alerted them to the preachers car. If you weren't hiding drugs, why not let them search? The dog making an alert for drugs gave them probable cause to search, in my opinion.

Why wouldn't they bring the dog back out to show him or the police officer who showed up to the seen and asked them to bring the dog out. The man had nothing in his car so if the dog is properly trained would have done nothing.

[Lag]

He had it coming.

[Intestiny Destiny]

Police dogs can be trained to make false alerts.

[Benjaman]

He was being kind of a douche during the whole incident, although he had the right to deny a search, not to mention the border patrol were being fishy as fuck during the whole thing, and being tasered/smashed was no way to "get him under control", because he wasn't like, swinging at them or about to kill himself. Oh, and apparently the guy is a brother of a friend of Rob Cockerham, the guy that runs cockeyed.com. You can see his summary and a few YouTube videos at his site.

My friend's brother Steve was involved in an incident at an Arizona border patrol stop on Tuesday. Apparently this stop is wholey within Arizona, not at a border at all, but routinely stops cars and searches their contents. I don't know the whole history, but at some point Steve decided that he would no longer consent to warrantless searches.

Sometime in February he shot this video at a similar New Mexico checkpoint:
Abusive Border Patrol Agents w/ Nunchucks at NM Checkpoint (27 minutes)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFS7oZtE8Ks

He refuses to let the officers search his vehicle and insists that they have neither probably cause nor a search warrant.
The officers in that incident never really made it clear what it was that made them suspect he was doing something illegal. I think they just pull aside a certain number of cars for a closer look. After about 30 minutes of constitutional chatter, they let him continue on his way.

On Tuesday, April 14, he was stopped at a similar non-border border stop, refused to allow his vehicle to be searched. A magical dog was brought out and the agents stated that the dog had indicated drugs or a person inside the car. Steve didn't accept that the dog had established probable cause because he knew there were neither drugs nor a body in the car. He felt the officers were lying about the dog and asked them for a repeat performance. They refused. Highway patrol arrived after about an hour and they assisted in breaking Steve's windows, tasering him, grinding his face against the broken window glass and arresting him. He went to the hospital and spent the night in jail.
His description of what happened: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUzd7G875Hc
An incident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFS7oZtE8Ks
Him recalling events: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUzd7G875Hc

[ultrasoundchick]

Why wouldn't they bring the dog back out to show him or the police officer who showed up to the seen and asked them to bring the dog out. The man had nothing in his car so if the dog is properly trained would have done nothing.

Probably because they don't have time to run the drug dog around cars 3 different times just because some jerk decides to be an asshole about having his car searched, all while traffic gets backed up for miles on the interstate. Drug dogs don't have 100% detection rates, sometimes they do mess up. But the dog giving an alert gave the police probable cause. The guy was being an ass and got what he deserved.

[SODA]

Probably because they don't have time to run the drug dog around cars 3 different times just because some jerk decides to be an asshole about having his car searched, all while traffic gets backed up for miles on the interstate. Drug dogs don't have 100% detection rates, sometimes they do mess up. But the dog giving an alert gave the police probable cause. The guy was being an ass and got what he deserved.

Except its not like they just ignored the dude, a POLICE officer asked them to bring it back around and they refused.

[SODA]

-

[Triple J]

Yeah, I think he could have avoided all of this if he just had complied and done as instructed. There wasn't much for him to lose. Police officers have a job to do and I believe they made the right decision in this situation.

[SODA]

Yeah, I think he could have avoided all of this if he just had complied and done as instructed. There wasn't much for him to lose. Police officers have a job to do and I believe they made the right decision in this situation.

Yeah because smashing both windows and tasering him with 3 different taserguns is totally a reasonable reaction.

[ultrasoundchick]

I have not read anywhere that a police officer asked for a repeat run with the dog. Both the articles here say that Anderson was the one who requested a second go.

[Benjaman]

Thats not the same incident benjamin, notice the lack of smashing through windows and such.
Shit, I meant to put "An incident:". Editing.

[SODA]

I have not read anywhere that a police officer asked for a repeat run with the dog. Both the articles here say that Anderson was the one who requested a second go.

It's in the video, now of course it should be taken with a grain of salt given the source, but if that did go down, its fucked up and the video tape should be released. What the fuck are the border patrol doing checking on US citizens crossing STATE lines anyway?

[Astronaut]

This is stubborn vs stubborn fat cops who always think they're right even though they sound like they don't know anything about the law. And a loudmouth who won't back down. Fat guy with glasses called him a fucking.. terrorist.

The 27minute live video is frustrating to watch.

[ultrasoundchick]

I agree, it's sketchy that there is a border patrol 75 miles inland, but at the same time, how are they to know he was a US citizen?

[SODA]

I agree, it's sketchy that there is a border patrol 75 miles inland, but at the same time, how are they to know he was a US citizen?

Because he is driving around in the US, inside the borders, with a registered vehicle, isn't mexican, and is being belligerent as fuck.

[Godly]

Some people should learn to pick their fights better. Yes it is good to stand up for yourself, but honestly if you aren't hiding anything, then let them search your damn car. It's better then getting the shit beat out of you.

[ultrasoundchick]

Because he is driving around in the US, inside the borders, with a registered vehicle, isn't mexican, and is being belligerent as fuck.

I mean before they pulled him over, or picked him out of the crowd. They could tell all of that just by the way he looked or the car he was driving? Doubt it, and the car was a rental, so it wouldn't have been registered to him.

[Lag]

Because he is driving around in the US, inside the borders, with a registered vehicle, isn't mexican, and is being belligerent as fuck.

Who says all illegal aliens are Mexican?

[SODA]

I mean before they pulled him over, or picked him out of the crowd. They could tell all of that just by the way he looked or the car he was driving? Doubt it, and the car was a rental, so it wouldn't have been registered to him.

They didn't pull him over, it was a border checkpoint, they stop everyone and ask them stupid questions.

[SODA]

Who says all illegal aliens are Mexican?

99% of the illegal immigrants in the New Mexico/Arizona area are.

[Lag]

And who says he couldn't be in that one percentile?

[SODA]

Statistics.

[The_Solipsist]

Moving vehicles aren't necessarily protected by the forth amendment. This is a sketchy area. Even mobile homes are under this.

[Stickperson]

I live in Arizona and these border checkpoints are really stupid wastes of time. Honestly, if they were to tell me that I was to be searched, I would be pissed.

Unless you're legitimately charged, you don't even need to give an officer your name. Just because the guy was an asshole doesn't mean he can't retain his rights.

[InnerDemon]

Just because you have the right doesn't mean you can be an asshole about it.

[Stickperson]

He was being an asshole by not letting them search his car prematurely?

After they brought the dog out, yes he was being an asshole.

[InnerDemon]

I just don't get it, why the hell would you be bothered by policemen searching your car if you have nothing to hide? I understand that you have the right to do it and I can also see how this can lead to a discussion like "yeah, well if they overlook this right, how long will it take until they overlook other rights?" but as long as they are not being assholes to you I can't see why would you refuse to let them do their job.

[mactroll]

I think the guy who got beaten is an idiot that should have just let the police search his car. But the police were no better in beating him as he had every right to defend his rights.

Still though, why turn it into a big deal? If he had nothing to hide in his car why didn't he just allow them to search it? What a tool.

[Casalen]

He has the right to not be searched without permission... unless there's probable cause.

A police dog thinking there might be something there is probable cause. He did not have the right to refuse a search.

As much as I hate too much authority and think it's a good idea to stand up to people like police trying to be thugs, they do need some leeway to do their job. And that's what the dog is for. He lost that right as soon as there was suspicion that he was smuggling something, regardless of why the dog thought that.

The police also did not have the right to use as much force as they did, but excessive force during a search and 'man beaten for defending his rights' are completely different things.

As for people saying he should let them search if he has nothing to hide... that's just stupid. Citizens should never be forced to be made lesser than other citizens, including law enforcement, without good reason. And that's what illegal search is; a way for law enforcement to be thugs. I've had my property stolen, broken and so forth by police officers because I happened to be a little kid-- too young to really do anything about it. It's not much different with adults if you choose not to do anything about it.

The big problem with the theory is that the police aren't robots any more than the NSA people listening in on our phone calls. They are human, and are not perfect; we can't give them too much power just because of that. They can't be trusted any more than I can to use it properly for law enforcement rather than giving themselves a heightened sense of power or whatever else would be questionable.

[Stickperson]

Because I'm 75 miles away from the border going home on a late night. And I'm white. @InnerDemon

[BreakTheWalls]

If I had a penny for everytime he said "Am I being detained? For what grounds I'm being detained?" and "Am I free to go on my way?", I'd make Donald Trump look like chump change. Also, "DONT TUCH MA CARR!" isn't a smart move for him. Neither is constantly arguing.

After more watching, he even refused to show ID. Don't you usually do that when you get stopped over? Wrongo.

[HappyPalooza]

I agree with InnerDemon that if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't be a righteous fuckwit and just let them do the search so you can push on with your day and not get beaten. Also it enhances suspicion you're hiding something which will only push them further. If a cop wants to search your car and you say, "Nope, can't do that! It's a violation of my rights! Don't search!" it's safe to assume they won't just go, "Oh alright. Carry on."

Guy didn't deserve the beating though.

[SODA]

I just don't get it, why the hell would you be bothered by policemen searching your car if you have nothing to hide? I understand that you have the right to do it and I can also see how this can lead to a discussion like "yeah, well if they overlook this right, how long will it take until they overlook other rights?" but as long as they are not being assholes to you I can't see why would you refuse to let them do their job.

Because "search" doesn't mean poke around and find anything in plain view, it can involve tearing up the vehicle in question including interior and tearing off the glove box etc. Not to mention they didn't have probably cause for a search.

[Niki]

I think we discussed things like this in my street law class. Border patrol has a different job than normal police and you are not allowed to not consent to a border patrol search. They don't really need a cause to do it either. Normal police do, but not border patrol. It's considered national security and your rights are suspended.

I'm not sure if I remember right though.

[InnerDemon]

Not to mention they didn't have probably cause for a search.

'Cause he told them so, right?

Because I'm 75 miles away from the border ... on a late night
I think that's the very reason they would stop you.

[Intestiny Destiny]

Whatever happened to having principles?

[Niki]

Also, probable cause is a very loose term, which means they could think of any bullshit reason to have to search you or your car. And since it's border control, like I said you don't need to consent and then they're allowed to use reasonable force to do what needs to be done. I don't really think that was REASONABLE force though.

[InnerDemon]

Whatever happened to having principles?

Not everyone can be as cool as Intestiny Destiny! :smug:

[Intestiny Destiny]

Fucking Gestapo.

[Iceshade]

Yeah I think that's bullshit. I would definitely want to see the tapes and see EXACTLY what it was that the dog did to indicate there were drugs in the car. If it's true that they brought the dog near the car, it did nothing, and it walked away (as this man said in the youtube video) then they didn't have probable cause whatsoever for searching his car and the police should burn for this. However if the dog did actually indicate there were drugs in his car then he should have let them proceed. The point where "probable cause" was established is very important here. Sure you can claim that the guards are the experts and they would know when the dog indicates a threat, but these officers should have to stand in front of a jury and explain to the court exactly what the dog did to indicate a threat because clearly the pastor did not see this.

Also I would hardly call covering your face with your hands a provoking action which merits an officer tasering you over 3 times.

[Casalen]

On further review, I don't understand why border patrol officers were stopping people 75 miles into the country. That's a pretty big distance.

[Stickperson]

I think they should just make a law that once you make it 100 miles into the country, you're in. I mean, 100+ miles of travelling (usually by foot), and thats more work than half the legal population does.

[TheFerret]

I agree with InnerDemon that if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't be a righteous fuckwit and just let them do the search so you can push on with your day and not get beaten. Also it enhances suspicion you're hiding something which will only push them further. If a cop wants to search your car and you say, "Nope, can't do that! It's a violation of my rights! Don't search!" it's safe to assume they won't just go, "Oh alright. Carry on."

Guy didn't deserve the beating though.

The problem is your two options shouldn't be:
a. Allow police to search your car for a sketchy "probable cause"
b. Get the shit beaten out of you.

[HappyPalooza]

Well the world's not perfect, dude.

[InTransit]

Shitty news thread :facts: