Health Care Reform

[Remote]

In America President Obama is pushing a reform on Health Care. This plan is supposed to make health care much more affordable. Although many believe this will lead to Government run health system as in Canada, and could cause alot of trouble down the road.

Discuss.

[Weirdusername]

In America President Obama is pushing a reform on Health Care. This plan is supposed to make health care much more affordable. Although many believe this will lead to Government run health system as in Canada, and could cause alot of trouble down the road.

Discuss.

I like our system.

[Oofie]

Excuse my ignorance here but how does affordable health care = trouble?

[Quadros]

Yeah I too am confused as to how cheap/free health care is bad? Do you think it's a bad idea because Canada does it, or do you just hate poor people?

[BmphP]

There are 3 types of people when it comes to health care reform

1) People that know that the country is in need for dire health care reform and wants a government take over for health care, because that seems like the best option.

I'm in that camp.

2) People that want health care reform but don't want it to be in the form of a government take over. I can sympathize with these people because they do recognize the need for health care reform (meaning it needs to be LOTS cheaper), but they just don't want the government having any part in it. I sort of get these people.

3) Then there's the greedy assholes who think that the health care is perfect and don't know why anyone's complaining. These are usually the people would either lose money from health care reform or they make money by having this health care stay the way it is. Or republicans. Either one of those two. I HATE these types of people.

I can not believe America doesn't have free health care already. Tax the shit out of us, I don't care. Health care is a right, and anyone that says otherwise is a fag.

The Canadian, The British, the French: their systems work just fine. America CAN be just like those people. But unfortunately we are backwards assholes.

Yeah I too am confused as to how cheap/free health care is bad? Do you think it's a bad idea because Canada does it, or do you just hate poor people?

It's both.

[Remote]

Yeah I too am confused as to how cheap/free health care is bad? Do you think it's a bad idea because Canada does it, or do you just hate poor people?
Because of so many people wanting care that it would take months to get an appointment, and could further any possible health problems. Also the older citizens will often be turned down for necessary care because they're seen as useless. Sometimes people become so desperate for health care they do things themself.

[Weirdusername]

There are 3 types of people when it comes to health care reform

1) People that know that the country is in need for dire health care reform and wants a government take over for health care, because that seems like the best option.

I'm in that camp.

2) People that want health care reform but don't want it to be in the form of a government take over. I can sympathize with these people because they do recognize the need for health care reform (meaning it needs to be LOTS cheaper), but they just don't want the government having any part in it. I sort of get these people.

3) Then there's the greedy assholes who think that the health care is perfect and don't know why anyone's complaining. These are usually the people would either lose money from health care reform or they make money by having this health care stay the way it is. Or republicans. Either one of those two. I HATE these types of people.

I can not believe America doesn't have free health care already. Tax the shit out of us, I don't care. Health care is a right, and anyone that says otherwise is a fag.

The Canadian, The British, the French: their systems work just fine. America CAN be just like those people. But unfortunately we are backwards assholes.



It's both.

Great summary.

Isn't free health care also a more socialist system? I'm told that's also why many Americans don't agree with it.

Anyone seen Sicko by the way? Michael Moore goes over a lot of this.

[BmphP]

Great summary.

Isn't free health care also a more socialist system? I'm told that's also why many Americans don't agree with it.

Anyone seen Sicko by the way? Michael Moore goes over a lot of this.

Sicko is not only immensely entertaining, it's very informative.


The "red scare" that people keep touting about is complete and utter bullshit. There are MANY things in America that are government run and that we pay taxes for. In fact, a few of them are mentioned in Sicko.

The Library
The police
the fire department
schools
mail service

list probably goes on.

"waaah socialized medicine. We are no socialists!!!!" is quite possibly the worst argument against socialized medicine.

[Quadros]

Because of so many people wanting care that it would take months to get an appointment, and could further any possible health problems. Also the older citizens will often be turned down for necessary care because they're seen as useless. Sometimes people become so desperate for health care they do things them self.

Yeah we sure do have that problem in Britain, France and Canada. Let me get this straight; you think that more people will be hospitalised if health care becomes free? Either you're wrong, and people won't be going 'I wouldn't risk my health like this normally, but since it's free GERONNIMOOOO-thunk', or you're right, and the increase will come from people who always NEEDED the care but didn't have access before. So your approach seems to be either 'I'm an idiot' or 'fuck poor people I don't want to have to share medical treatment, it might slightly inconvenience me'.

[Remote]

or you're right, and the increase will come from people who always NEEDED the care but didn't have access before. So your approach seems to be either 'I'm an idiot' or 'fuck poor people I don't want to have to share medical treatment, it might slightly inconvenience me'.
No it's a problem for all poor, or rich. If your sick you need care. You can't wait 6 months to get taken care of.

[Oofie]

Because of so many people wanting care that it would take months to get an appointment, and could further any possible health problems. Also the older citizens will often be turned down for necessary care because they're seen as useless.

That's really really retarded. Ireland doesn't have free health care but I've been in England all summer, I've been to see a doctor 3 times, and all of those times I got appointments within the space of a week.

What makes you think old people would be refused health care? I work in a hospital where two of the biggest wards are filled with old people, most of whom might never leave, but they're kept happy and, unless they're terminal, get nursed back to health.

Sometimes people become so desperate for health care they do things themself.

Doesn't America already have free clinics? Do people do crazy things so they get immediate attention from those?

[Quadros]

You wouldn't have to. Remember, Britain, Canada and even CUBA have nationalised free health care. We're all fine.

Case and point; years ago, my mum had a tumour in her womb. within a week of it being found she'd had her hysterectomy. WITHIN A WEEK. FOR FREE. Reckon you're getting that in the USA even now?

[Allen]

Yeah we sure do have that problem in Britain, France and Canada. Let me get this straight; you think that more people will be hospitalised if health care becomes free? Either you're wrong, and people won't be going 'I wouldn't risk my health like this normally, but since it's free GERONNIMOOOO-thunk', or you're right, and the increase will come from people who always NEEDED the care but didn't have access before. So your approach seems to be either 'I'm an idiot' or 'fuck poor people I don't want to have to share medical treatment, it might slightly inconvenience me'.

Every argument against it is pretty much bullshit. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "If you think socialized health care is a good idea, you should ask the British and Canadians how they feel about their health care systems!" Though I've never heard a single negative thing about the system from anyone from any of those countries.

And as for it being "socialism", so the fuck what? Socialism in itself isn't inherently evil. An entire socialist government would be against American ideals, and the system doesn't exactly work in practice. But we're not talking about a government overhaul. We're talking about overhauling a flawed system in a way that can only be beneficial. We're taking money out of the pockets of people whose business has been to exploit the sick for decades.

And no, I don't believe that anything should come free to anyone. I would love to be able to say that health care should only be made cheaper and everyone should get a job and pay their own insurance. That's an ideal world. Problem is, we don't live in an ideal world. Not everyone is going to work for their shit. And the problem here is that a lot of these people are responsible for children. Children die all the time because their parents don't have insurance. And I don't know about any of you assholes, but I can deal with a few people taking advantage of a system (which happens all the time with other systems anyway) if it means children that can't do anything about it end up getting the health care they require.

[Antisaint]

Health care needs reform, but the answer for how to pay for it is what most people fight about. I don't think it's right to tax the living shit out of the rich. It's a stupid idea that the rich should be taxed because they can afford it. They worked hard and earned that money (well, some of them at least), why should that be taken away? It sends the message that they are wrong to be in that tax bracket, that being middle class is the most desirable economic status. Yes, everyone should be provided affordable health care, and I understand the rich would be provided with that same coverage (even though a lot of people get it through their employers for dirt cheap anyways). But it's not right to effectively punish someone for being successful.

[BmphP]

Health care needs reform, but the answer for how to pay for it is what most people fight about. I don't think it's right to tax the living shit out of the rich. It's a stupid idea that the rich should be taxed because they can afford it. They worked hard and earned that money (well, some of them at least), why should that be taken away? It sends the message that they are wrong to be in that tax bracket, that being middle class is the most desirable economic status. Yes, everyone should be provided affordable health care, and I understand the rich would be provided with that same coverage (even though a lot of people get it through their employers for dirt cheap anyways). But it's not right to effectively punish someone for being successful.

Taxes aren't punishment. The rich get taxed more because they CAN afford it. So what? They'll still be rich as fuck, they'll be just a little bit less rich as fuck. It's not like the government is taxing them so much that they're going into the middle class.

I for one would rather be rich and get my ass taxed off than be in the middle class.

Second of all, if the rich don't want to pay their taxes, they shouldn't have to. They could just go to jail or stop getting all the wonderful stuff taxes bring.

[BlackHood]

The trouble is, its not the rich being heavily taxed, its the middle classes. In the UK if you earn between £31,000 and £100,000 you will be taxed at a basic rate of 40%.

That wage bracket is middle class. If you earned £100,000 a year (total household income) you wouldn't be able to afford a swimming pool, travel first class or anything else that "rich" people do. but you'd still be paying anywhere between £12,000 and £40,000 in tax every year!

[cptlol]

Aren't the "rich" taxed at 52%, if I'm not mistaken.

[Antisaint]

Taxes aren't punishment. The rich get taxed more because they CAN afford it. So what? They'll still be rich as fuck, they'll be just a little bit less rich as fuck. It's not like the government is taxing them so much that they're going into the middle class.

I for one would rather be rich and get my ass taxed off than be in the middle class.

I'd rather be able to keep what I earn. Income tax is retarded.

The trouble is, its not the rich being heavily taxed, its the middle classes. In the UK if you earn between £31,000 and £100,000 you will be taxed at a basic rate of 40%.

That wage bracket is middle class. If you earned £100,000 a year (total household income) you wouldn't be able to afford a swimming pool, travel first class or anything else that "rich" people do. but you'd still be paying anywhere between £12,000 and £40,000 in tax every year!

UK has some fucked tax brackets.

[WoeGuy]

Health care needs reform, but the answer for how to pay for it is what most people fight about. I don't think it's right to tax the living shit out of the rich. It's a stupid idea that the rich should be taxed because they can afford it. They worked hard and earned that money (well, some of them at least), why should that be taken away? It sends the message that they are wrong to be in that tax bracket, that being middle class is the most desirable economic status. Yes, everyone should be provided affordable health care, and I understand the rich would be provided with that same coverage (even though a lot of people get it through their employers for dirt cheap anyways). But it's not right to effectively punish someone for being successful.
Yeah, this is the way I see it.

Go tax baseball stars or someone else who makes millions just by showing up to their event.

[Antisaint]

Yeah, this is the way I see it.

Go tax baseball stars or someone else who makes millions just by showing up to their event.

Eh, bad example. They're being paid not only to entertain, but also for the demands on their bodies. Not all athletes work after their career is over, so they use what they make over like 10 years to pay for their retirement, which is often rife with medical issues caused by their dedication to the sport. It's a lot less money if you think about how many years it has to sustain them.

[Quadros]

Rich people are paid obscenely, way beyond the contribution they actually make to society. They should be taxed accordingly, especially since capitalism allows and even encourages people to make money by dicking over other people.

[Metalhead636]

Why the fuck do we not have a good health care system yet? My family got fucked over when my mum got cancer a few years back.

[BlackHood]

Rich people are paid obscenely, way beyond the contribution they actually make to society. They should be taxed accordingly, especially since capitalism allows and even encourages people to make money by dicking over other people.

So would you consider a Teacher who is a Head of Department (£34,000) Rich? How about a Cancer research scientist with a team of three (£40,000)? Or in fact the Head Teacher, with a staff of 100 and 3,000 children to look after (£66,000)?

The rich aren't taxed, the Middle Classes are. If your total household income is less than £31,000 you're not middle class you're working class.

A higher tax bracket should come into effect at £100,000 or more, which incorporate the highest sector of society, it shouldn't target those who have merely been good enough at their job to make a comfortable living.

[Iceshade]

I love how Obama is suddenly Robin Hood now, swinging into rich people's castles on a rope, taxing their money and giving it to the poor.

I know most of you won't understand this concept, but have you ever considered that maybe rich people are rich because they worked their asses off to earn their money? If I spent 16 years of my life in college, then another 16 years working myself to death to make money, I'd be pretty fucking annoyed if I have to give nearly half of it to people that didn't bother to get an education in the first place.

Yeah, I know, blah blah not everyone has that opportunity but I believe that there are more lazy poor people than there are poor people who have never had a single opportunity to move ahead here in America.

[Metalhead636]

God knows the wealthy people I know don't work hard. They were lucky.

[ArtVandelay]

I don't really know much about the subject, but my strictly republican parents said that if the we had government controlled health care, the doctors would be able to choose if you live or not. Like if I was in a coma, my family wouldn't have the right to keep me living or to pull the plug, the doctors would. Now I don't even know if it's true, because my parents could just be exagerrating because they're supporting the republican side.

[Oofie]

I love how Obama is suddenly Robin Hood now, swinging into rich people's castles on a rope, taxing their money and giving it to the poor.

I know most of you won't understand this concept, but have you ever considered that maybe rich people are rich because they worked their asses off to earn their money? If I spent 16 years of my life in college, then another 16 years working myself to death to make money, I'd be pretty fucking annoyed if I have to give nearly half of it to people that didn't bother to get an education in the first place.

Yeah, I know, blah blah not everyone has that opportunity but I believe that there are more lazy poor people than there are poor people who have never had a single opportunity to move ahead here in America.

Yeah those lazy bums probably deserve to die anyway right? Lets keep health care for those who can afford it.

[BlackHood]

God knows the wealthy people I know don't work hard. They were lucky.

My parents fall into the £100,000+ category, and even since I can remember my dad has been up working on the phone or e-mails at 6:00am every morning and as I write this at 10:31pm he's still working on his laptop having been at the office between 8am and 6pm.

I have friends who's families earn more and who earn less, and from my experience, success comes not from hard work but from dedications and determination.

My friend's mother earns the same as me after working in her office for 7 years, yet while we are on the bus (we both work in the same area of the city) I'm reviewing files and planning my day or making calls, whereas she's listening to her iPod. I'm no smarter than her, and have 25 years less life experience but I'm putting in the extra time and therefore being more successful.

Effort = Reward in 90% of careers.

[Quadros]

That's not true at all. In Britain the doctors have a legal responsibility to act in the best interests of the patient, but it's trumped by the patient's legal right to an informed choice. Basically as long as the patient is capable of making an informed decision, they can choose what they like. They can also appoint a proxy to make decisions for them.

[Quadros]

My parents fall into the £100,000+ category, and even since I can remember my dad has been up working on the phone or e-mails at 6:00am every morning and as I write this at 10:31pm he's still working on his laptop having been at the office between 8am and 6pm.

I have friends who's families earn more and who earn less, and from my experience, success comes not from hard work but from dedications and determination.

My friend's mother earns the same as me after working in her office for 7 years, yet while we are on the bus (we both work in the same area of the city) I'm reviewing files and planning my day or making calls, whereas she's listening to her iPod. I'm no smarter than her, and have 25 years less life experience but I'm putting in the extra time and therefore being more successful.

Effort = Reward in 90% of careers.

My dad's the same, and earns about the same, but I have to say I support high taxes to provide free universal health care. And I'll be ok with it when it's my 40%. Because I believe that while effort undoubtedly makes a difference, environment does too. My dad's worked fucking hard his entire life, but he had a supportive, strong (but not rich) family backing him up, went to a decent school and was supported by his teachers. My Mum comes from a broken home, came off the rails from it as a teenager, lived in a worse area and went to a worse school. Now she earned a third of what my dad did before she had to leave her job through health, and she was no less motivated or hard working. And she was comparatively lucky, since marrying my dad allowed her to get her education and professional life back on track.

Now imagine being born into a family who don't give a shit or are split, in inner city Liverpool, and going to a school full of bad influences and worse teachers. Odds of success? Odds of needing medical care at some point?

[BlackHood]

Both my parents grew up in east london, very disadvantaged backgrounds, so I don't subscribe to the idea that environment entirely influences your success rate, but I take your point.

I just believe that a three or four tear system would work better. I don't begrudge paying tax, but I think that lower-upper income (specifically £30k - £55k) shouldn't be paying 40% on their income.

I believe a better system for organising our healthcare system would be to charge for an initial consult, but to make treatment and subsequent consultations free. If an illness/problem is diagnosed then the fee could be reimbursed.

It would stop the time wasters, whithout being crippling.

[Gorby]

The system in Canada works fine, almost everything is free, including speciality doctors, the only problem is ER but if you come in with somethign life threatning you will be taken care of right away. People come in for stupid things that crowd up ER but other then that it is perfect.

[Allen]

Yeah those lazy bums probably deserve to die anyway right? Lets keep health care for those who can afford it.

Yes, lazy bums do deserve to die. If you're not going to bust your ass to be a functioning part of society, then we really don't need you. Again, the problem here is that this would victimize their children, who can go on to make something of themselves.

Free health care really should be put on a system where it is conditional. Health care should be provided to children one way or another no matter what. Outside of that, it should be put on a system where you have to apply for it, and to get it your circumstances should qualify you for it. And none of this taking account of a pre-existing condition bullshit. The problem with this, however, is that all government run programs like this are managed in the most piss-poor way possible. Therefore, free health care seems to be the more logical approach.

[WoeGuy]

Yes, lazy bums do deserve to die. If you're not going to bust your ass to be a functioning part of society, then we really don't need you. Again, the problem here is that this would victimize their children, who can go on to make something of themselves.

Sterilize the lazy!

[Oofie]

People crowd A&E (accident and emergency) with stupid complaints in Ireland even though we have to pay €120~ per visit.

EDIT: Poor =/= lazy, Allen. Maybe in some cases people favour claiming the dole over attempting to find a job but there are people out there genuinely struggling. And health care is pretty much a basic human right, you can't just decide not to give it to people you think aren't contributing to society.

EDIT2: beaten by quaddy :(

[Quadros]

Yes, lazy bums do deserve to die. If you're not going to bust your ass to be a functioning part of society, then we really don't need you. Again, the problem here is that this would victimize their children, who can go on to make something of themselves.

Free health care really should be put on a system where it is conditional. Health care should be provided to children one way or another no matter what. Outside of that, it should be put on a system where you have to apply for it, and to get it your circumstances should qualify you for it. And none of this taking account of a pre-existing condition bullshit. The problem with this, however, is that all government run programs like this are managed in the most piss-poor way possible. Therefore, free health care seems to be the more logical approach.

I'm pretty sure it's a right not a privilege. Some people are more successful than others, some people have harder lives than others, and that's hardly ever a mutual correlation. You can't make health care conditional to earning it, that's beyond fucked up. Some people have a philosophical approach to life which is effectively encapsulated by 'life's for living, not for working'. I don't agree with it, but they're already punished for it with poverty and scorn, I don't see why we should deny them life and health as well. Besides which, how do you separate the lazy from the vulnerable or unlucky or fucked over? EVERYONE deserves medical care. Rich people, poor people, lazy people, death row inmates, everyone. They're all people.

[BmphP]

I'm pretty sure it's a right not a privilege. Some people are more successful than others, some people have harder lives than others, and that's hardly ever a mutual correlation. You can't make health care conditional to earning it, that's beyond fucked up. Some people have a philosophical approach to life which is effectively encapsulated by 'life's for living, not for working'. I don't agree with it, but they're already punished for it with poverty and scorn, I don't see why we should deny them life and health as well. Besides which, how do you separate the lazy from the vulnerable or unlucky or fucked over? EVERYONE deserves medical care. Rich people, poor people, lazy people, death row inmates, everyone. They're all people.

I agree with you quadros but you'd be surprised how many people do not. So many people do think health care is not a right.

[Metalhead636]

I'm pretty sure it's a right not a privilege. Some people are more successful than others, some people have harder lives than others, and that's hardly ever a mutual correlation. You can't make health care conditional to earning it, that's beyond fucked up. Some people have a philosophical approach to life which is effectively encapsulated by 'life's for living, not for working'. I don't agree with it, but they're already punished for it with poverty and scorn, I don't see why we should deny them life and health as well. Besides which, how do you separate the lazy from the vulnerable or unlucky or fucked over? EVERYONE deserves medical care. Rich people, poor people, lazy people, death row inmates, everyone. They're all people.

This is everything I wanted to say but could not explain.


Everyone deserves it. End of story.

[PYLrulz]

Aren't the "rich" taxed at 52%, if I'm not mistaken.

Unless you are talking about a different country, I thought it was more around the 40% mark (more or less).

[timbot]

I always think it's a fun little spin when people talk about "free" health care. NOTHING is free. It costs money to pay for doctors, medicine, and all thing health care related. Someone has to pay that money at some point. Perhaps you don't pay at the counter, but you are paying at some point. People say "free health care" but what they really mean (most of the time) is "government-funded health care." That means that while you might not pay a big bill when you see the doctor, that's because you already paid for it/will pay for it in your taxes. Or, really what it means is that a lot of people paid for it with their taxes. Some of them will get sick and will get their money's worth for the taxes they paid. Some will not get sick and will pay much more than the benefit they received. And some will get sick but will not pay taxes, or will pay so little that they benefit far more than they paid. In the end, someone is paying. So, let's not kid ourselves with a bunch of talk about "free" health care.
The next thing people say that isn't really true is that health car is a right. Since when? In the past few years in the U.S. it seems everyone's been throwing that around as some obvious bit of information that needs no explaining. Anyone who asks about it or questions it is immediately villanized. I know people will make big screaming arguments about how life is a right everyone has and if you refuse health care to someone you are then infringing on that right, but it doesn't work that way. If that were the case, it would also be our moral imperative to feed everyone. Yet, nobody is screaming about the right to free food. You have a right to live, but if you can't support that life in some way, that's just tough shit. Medical care is not a right, and that will not change no matter how many times a politician says it in front of a crowd or Quadros types it in capital letters.
I also like the way rich people are treated in these discussions. To get it out of the way, I don't think every rich person worked hard and truly earned their money. Nor do I think every poor person is a lazy bastard. However, the fact that rich people are rich doesn't mean anyone has a right to take their money. I don't care what the cause is. To say "they'll still be rich," is just ridiculous. It's still that person's money, and not another person's. It was also said somewhere above that these rich people have so much more than they deserve, or something to that effect. (of course, can't find it when I want to) But, how do we decide how much is more than one deserves or is necessary? And who decides that?
Finally, onto the socialism thing. In some ways it's a kind of silly argument. As has been pointed out, we pay for lots of other things through taxes. However, that does not mean it's ok to add one more thing to the list. There are fanatics who fly off the handle about how this plan will turn us into socialists. They're the silly ones. However, there are more rational people who don't want to add one more socialized system to the list. A lot of these people--like myself--are not really supportive of those other systems either. Of course, those are not making big news right now.

[Oofie]

Your first paragraph is completely unnecessary and pretty patronising, we've already mentioned tax several times in the thread, so it's pretty obvious everyone knows what the 'free' bit of free health care means.

As for your spiel about rich people, I think you're just being ignorant. Sure, no one has the right to 'take their money', but if they want to live in a functioning society, the government has the right to tax them.

[opn4bzns]

The next thing people say that isn't really true is that health car is a right. Since when?
[...]
Medical care is not a right, and that will not change no matter how many times a politician says it in front of a crowd or Quadros types it in capital letters.


Article 25.

* (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

And in general, do you realise you are arguing that thousands of people should die every year because you don't want to contribute money so that your society is able to treat them?

[timbot]

Your first paragraph is completely unnecessary and pretty patronising, we've already mentioned tax several times in the thread, so it's pretty obvious everyone knows what the 'free' bit of free health care means.

As for your spiel about rich people, I think you're just being ignorant. Sure, no one has the right to 'take their money', but if they want to live in a functioning society, the government has the right to tax them.
I only included the part about "free" health care because it doesn't seem people do know what it means. I know taxes had been brought up, but it was at the same time that people were asking for something free. I'm just saying, let's not call it free when it's not. I really hate when language is screwed with like that to make things seem like what they are not.

For the rich people, society is actually functioning without taking their money for taxes. I actually believe society could function without taxes. Especially when those taxes are higher, by percentage, for the rich than for the poor. Why should a poor person be allowed to live in this functioning society while paying one tax rate, but the rich are not allowed unless they pay a higher rate?

And in general, do you realise you are arguing that thousands of people should die every year because you don't want to contribute money so that your society is able to treat them?

Yes. I realize that's exactly what I'm arguing. If people want to contribute, they can contribute voluntarily. For those of you who are so adamant about everyone having health care, then start saving some money and donating somewhere that helps those who get stuck in bad situations. But, if I don't want to do it, then I shouldn't have to.
As for the U.N. thing, that's just like the politician saying it's a right. They can say it, but that doesn't mean it's so. I don't agree with what is said there. And as I said before, if food, clothing and shelter are all rights in the same way that health care is, why are we not rallying for socialized food, clothing and shelter as well?

On a slightly different tack, that I don't think anyone mentioned before, another issue some people have with what's being proposed in America is that they like the health care they have now. They have good insurance and despite some promises to the contrary, they fear that the new systems being proposed will not allow them to keep what they have.

[opn4bzns]

But, if I don't want to do it, then I shouldn't have to.

Yes you should. Society should not let people die because they cannot afford health care, and as you so astutely observed, someone has to pay for it.


As for the U.N. thing, that's just like the politician saying it's a right. They can say it, but that doesn't mean it's so. I don't agree with what is said there.

And as I said before, if food, clothing and shelter are all rights in the same way that health care is, why are we not rallying for socialized food, clothing and shelter as well?


Justify why you don't think people without money do not have the right to live.

Because we already have homeless shelters that provide food and shelter, and public housing. As we should.


On a slightly different tack, that I don't think anyone mentioned before, another issue some people have with what's being proposed in America is that they like the health care they have now. They have good insurance and despite some promises to the contrary, they fear that the new systems being proposed will not allow them to keep what they have.

Bullshit. You can still pay for private health insurance if you want it.

Also, you seem to think you're horribly persecuted as a rich person. Do you think maybe this is connected to the fact that you think poor people should die because they can't afford health care?

[Oofie]

I actually believe society could function without taxes.
So we should individually pay for everything? Education, sanitation, road works, public building construction, the legal system? You're aware that without tax, these things would have to be paid for by someone right? Who should it be?

Why should a poor person be allowed to live in this functioning society while paying one tax rate, but the rich are not allowed unless they pay a higher rate?

I don't believe, and neither do you according to your previous post, that poor people are all lazy bums who deserve the worst standard of living possible. If someone who earns $350,000 per year (I'm not sure what a great salary is in America, so I'm guessing that 350k would be a large salary) gets taxed 30% (again, a guess, I don't know about taxing brackets in America), they'll still make enough to live comfortably. If someone who earns minimum wage gets taxed 30%, it could cripple them. It's only fair that there are different levels of taxes. Why should underprivileged have less of a right to health care simply because their situation is worse?

[timbot]

Yes you should. Society should not let people die because they cannot afford health care, and as you so astutely observed, someone has to pay for it.
I don't know what else to say here but no I shouldn't. I think that's a fundamental violation of my rights. What belongs to me is mine and nobody should be allowed to take it from me.



Justify why you don't think people without money do not have the right to live.
I thought I already mentioned this, but perhaps not. I never said poor people don't have a right to live. The right to live is not the same as the right to health care. Denying health care to someone who cannot pay is not the same as taking away that persons life--which would be denying the right to life.

Because we already have homeless shelters that provide food and shelter, and public housing. As we should.
We also have free medical clinics and a program in place to help those without insurance. A homeless man who goes to the ER still gets service. Homeless shelters, etc. are not nearly the same as the same as a socialized medical services.



Bullshit. You can still pay for private health insurance if you want it.
Calm down. This is what some people say. I wasn't presenting it as my idea, only as an issue people have raised. The little bit I heard made it sound like some people could lose the insurance they currently have through work or whatever private means. I don't know how likely that is, I haven't done the research, but it's a concern.

Also, you seem to think you're horribly persecuted as a rich person. Do you think maybe this is connected to the fact that you think poor people should die because they can't afford health care?
Well, now you're just being ridiculous. I'd rather not say I think people "should" die because it makes it sound like I desire for them to die. However, if someone cannot pay medical care and eventually dies, I don't see that as such a terrible thing. It's unfortunate, but lots of unfortunate things happen in the world every day. And again, those who think this is such a terrible thing can give their money to/set up charities and funds to help the poor who cannot pay for their own care. I'm not against helping the poor. I'm not in favor of them dying. I'm against more taxation to pay for a socialized system of health care.

Edit:
So we should individually pay for everything? Education, sanitation, road works, public building construction, the legal system? You're aware that without tax, these things would have to be paid for by someone right? Who should it be?
I think you answered it already. Pay for yourself. I also believe that a lot of people out there would be willing to donate money to help with things that are currently government funded. I would quite happily donate money to schools, for example. I'm sure plenty of businesses would as well. They would give money to schools or students because they know that a well-educated work-force is to their advantage.
Some people--who are more knowledgeable on this subect than I--also have other ideas for distributing these expenses among more people without forcing anyone to pay. One thought I've heard is to put a small, voluntary charge, on credit transactions. The idea being that if you accept the charge and there is a problem with the transaction that requires legal action, then the legal fees would be paid, either in part or in full. If you don't accept the charge, that's fine, but if something goes wrong and you get screwed, then you have pay out of your own pocket. It's pretty much how insurance works. Of course of all the transactions that happen, few of them go to court, so there would be lots of left over money. That money could then be spent on things that are currently government funded. This is not something I know a lot about, so don't jump all over it. I'm not going to defend it here, I'm merely putting it out there as something I've heard.

Now, about taxing a poor person 30%. It's an interesting argument, and I understand what you're saying. Taxing someone who is very poor that much could push them over the edge and into real poverty. So, that's why you don't tax them. I think that's quite right, it hardly seems fair. However, what that doesn't address is why it is ok to tax a rich person 30%. You say the rich person will still be rich, but where do we draw the line?
All this stuff about "living comfortably" is interesting, but it's hard to really define. At one point does one go from "living comfortably" to "living uncomfortably?" It all seems very apparent when one talks about the super rich. Take a person who is making millions in a year and tax him 30% and it doesn't seem to make much difference. But, what about someone who is making $40,000? $30,000.
Also, I don't know if it's correct to say the underprivileged have less of a right to health care. They have a right to what they can afford. I think we--including myself--get confused between having a right and being able to afford. I have the right to buy a Ferrari. I just can't afford it.
I'll stop there for fear of being redundant and really fucking boring.

[BmphP]

For the rich people, society is actually functioning without taking their money for taxes. I actually believe society could function without taxes. Especially when those taxes are higher, by percentage, for the rich than for the poor. Why should a poor person be allowed to live in this functioning society while paying one tax rate, but the rich are not allowed unless they pay a higher rate?

Terrible. Society CAN NOT run without taxes. Why should rich pay more taxes than the poor? Because they can. Eepha already explained this though.

And if you don't want to pay taxes, you're right, you shouldn't have to. But you also shouldn't get all of the benefits that tax money pays for.

[Mr. Crow]

I find it hilarious how conservatives such as timbot are such strong proponents of capitalism and how it's okay for the wealthy to get advantages in even such basic human needs as health care because they can afford it, but then are so quick to cite fairness when it comes to the topic of graduated tax rates. If the poor suffer or die from lack of healthcare, hey, that's just social darwinism, baby; but higher taxes for those who can afford it? Monstrous.

If the poor can be shafted because they're poor, then the rich can be shafted because they're rich. It goes both ways, buddy.

EDIT: The right to live is not the same as the right to health care. Denying health care to someone who cannot pay is not the same as taking away that persons life--which would be denying the right to life.

Cognitive dissonance in action, kids.

And now you've made me think of right-to-lifers, so a shout out to conservatives: if you're going to insist that poor teenage mothers have their children instead of aborting, don't be a fucking hypocrite and oppose free healthcare for those children (or for their mother who needs to raise them).

If life is sacred, then the living of that life is even more sacred.

[opn4bzns]

I don't know what else to say here but no I shouldn't. I think that's a fundamental violation of my rights. What belongs to me is mine and nobody should be allowed to take it from me.


So your right to money is greater than the rights to life of thousands of people? That does not seem selfish at all.


I thought I already mentioned this, but perhaps not. I never said poor people don't have a right to live. The right to live is not the same as the right to health care. Denying health care to someone who cannot pay is not the same as taking away that persons life--which would be denying the right to life.


Are you rephrasing this because it makes you feel uncomfortable to be responsible for death? It's the same thing, letting people die when health care is available because you don't want to pay for it.


Well, now you're just being ridiculous. I'd rather not say I think people "should" die because it makes it sound like I desire for them to die. However, if someone cannot pay medical care and eventually dies, I don't see that as such a terrible thing. It's unfortunate, but lots of unfortunate things happen in the world every day. And again, those who think this is such a terrible thing can give their money to/set up charities and funds to help the poor who cannot pay for their own care. I'm not against helping the poor. I'm not in favor of them dying. I'm against more taxation to pay for a socialized system of health care.

Your desire for money is greater than your desire to not have thousands of people unnecessarily die.

I'm no tax expert, but it doesn't even look like very much money. Australia and New Zealand have socialised health and our tax is lower than the US's according to this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg/800px-Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg.png
(from wikipedia)

[Quadros]

OK Timbot, I'm just going to go ahead and deal with the things you said that offend me most.

1. Health care is a Human right. Says who? The UN. That's not 'just some politician', That's THE UN. The people in charge of DEFINING what is or isn't a human right. They have the final say. You don't.

2. Capitalism is a system in which to get rich you normally have to make people poorer. It's just how it works. The more successful you are, the more people you've screwed over, and that's how the system works. Now you can be ok with being a horrible asshole, but if you are your opinion is invalid. If you're hiding behind 'I just played the system' then you won't mind another part of that system doing a tiny bit to redress the balance by taking proportionally more of your money to help the people you shafted pay for the basic things they need to live.

3. Fuck your 'no taxes' bullshit. You are part of a society and it is that society that facilitated your financial success. As a member of this society you have a social responsibility and a duty to contribute to it. Not just in the 'I give poor people jobs and take most of the money and credit for their work' bullshit, actually contribute to everyone in society's health, education, safety and protection, to mention just a few things. If you can provide more, you should provide more. It's not like anyone's saying you should give away all your money, you'd still have more than enough. But you have a duty to help other people just like other people have helped you your entire life.

[timbot]

So your right to money is greater than the rights to life of thousands of people? That does not seem selfish at all.

Are you rephrasing this because it makes you feel uncomfortable to be responsible for death? It's the same thing, letting people die when health care is available because you don't want to pay for it.
This is the last time I'm going to say that the right to live is not the same as having health care at your disposal. Also, what percentage of my money must I give before I no longer have blood on my hands? Apparently you already give that much, so please tell me. What about bums on the street? If a bum asks for my money and I refuse, and that bum dies, am I responsible? If he was refused by 50 people can we all be convicted of manslaughter? Negligent homicide?
My right to have money is no higher than another's right to live. A right to property and a right to life are on equal grounds in my book. I won't go into it any deeper here.


I'm no tax expert, but it doesn't even look like very much money. Australia and New Zealand have socialised health and our tax is lower than the US's according to this:
It's not about amount. It's about forcing people to pay what they don't want to pay.


OK Timbot, I'm just going to go ahead and deal with the things you said that offend me most.

1. Health care is a Human right. Says who? The UN. That's not 'just some politician', That's THE UN. The people in charge of DEFINING what is or isn't a human right. They have the final say. You don't.
What is this now? The UN just turned into the damn Pope. That's great that the UN says that. But the UN is not infallible. What the UN says might stand for the law--and I'm not even sure of their legal authority--but that doesn't mean it's morally correct. The UN is wrong. (or we're misinterpreting what was quoted because I do think people have a right to those things, but having the right to something and being able to afford it are not the same as I posted earlier...bah)

2. Capitalism is a system in which to get rich you normally have to make people poorer. It's just how it works. The more successful you are, the more people you've screwed over, and that's how the system works. Now you can be ok with being a horrible asshole, but if you are your opinion is invalid. If you're hiding behind 'I just played the system' then you won't mind another part of that system doing a tiny bit to redress the balance by taking proportionally more of your money to help the people you shafted pay for the basic things they need to live.
In capitalism a lot of people get rich by holding others down. That is correct. It's very unfortunate. However, it doesn't have to happen that way. I don't think we'll ever have a time when it doesn't happen to a degree, because there's always corruption, but I also don't think it's something that must happen in capitalism. I think one can be quite successful without screwing another over. For an easy example, though an uncommon one, think of a sports star. Let's take David Beckham. I don't know how much money he makes, but I'm sure it's a hell of a lot (especially when you consider his contribution to society). Did he screw anyone over to get his position? It's possible, I don't know everything he's done. Perhaps sometime in his life he fucked up a rival just so he could get ahead. However, I think it's just as likely if not more likely that he worked his ass off, got some lucky breaks and eventually ended up where he is today.
I don't support being a crooked capitalist and claiming "I just played the system." I like the capitalist system, but I don't think it's flawless, and I certainly don't think everyone who supports it is a good, moral person.

3. Fuck your 'no taxes' bullshit. You are part of a society and it is that society that facilitated your financial success. As a member of this society you have a social responsibility and a duty to contribute to it. Not just in the 'I give poor people jobs and take most of the money and credit for their work' bullshit, actually contribute to everyone in society's health, education, safety and protection, to mention just a few things. If you can provide more, you should provide more. It's not like anyone's saying you should give away all your money, you'd still have more than enough. But you have a duty to help other people just like other people have helped you your entire life.
I think providing jobs is a great contribution to society. I realize people have helped my entire life. However, I don't think that help needs to come through taxes. You act like giving someone a job is not that much. Think about it. If a rich person who owns a company did not give that other person a job, how would that second person even afford the shitty apartment he rents?
There's a lot more to be said there, and that last part especially came out shitty I think, but I'm getting tired and I don't want to get into a huge debate about capitalism.

[MistyTehMoose]

It's not about amount. It's about forcing people to pay what they don't want to pay.

You aren't going to be able to live anywhere without paying for taxes and frankly its ridiculous to say that just because you don't want to pay taxes yo shouldn't have to. Look into what taxes actually provide for your country.

It's your roads, your community buildings, fuck, it helps keep businesses afloat. It contributes to so many things and it surprises me that the US hasn't made it contribute towards a better health care system sooner. I can't think of anything as important as the country's citizens wellbeing.

[BmphP]

It's not about amount. It's about forcing people to pay what they don't want to pay.

So you're perfectly fine with paying other taxes, just not health care ones? Or is it that you don't want to pay any taxes. That' pretty selfish. I don't want to repeat myself or repeat what many other people have said, but you live in a society that works a lot through taxes. Yes your taxes pay for other people's well being but also for your own. Why should the less fortunate not get the same social benefits as the rich. Why should the poor (And I'm not talking about the DIRT poor here, I'm talking about the people who make a decent amount, they are just not middle class) have to pay for benefits they should have when they can't.

No mail for the poor. No school for the poor. No help from the fire department for the poor.

Don't pay taxes if you don't want to. Nobody should have to. Then again, nobody should get the benefits their would-be tax money is paying for.

[Oofie]

Timbot, I don't understand your stance fully.

Nobody particularly likes paying taxes, we're not all ganging up on you because we love that our pay checks get cut every month. But it's better than the alternative. Your theory is life would be better if we just paid for ourselves. I know I already asked this and you somewhat answered but who pays for public building construction? Don't say you pay for it yourself, because I'm personally never planning on building anything. So who does pay for a local library? Government aren't getting taxes so they can't be bothered.

Who pays police salaries? I know I've only ever had to deal with them 4 or 5 times, so I wouldn't pay very much for their services.

[MistyTehMoose]

Not to mention roadworks which are pretty damn important.

[Quadros]

This is the last time I'm going to say that the right to live is not the same as having health care at your disposal. Also, what percentage of my money must I give before I no longer have blood on my hands? Apparently you already give that much, so please tell me. What about bums on the street? If a bum asks for my money and I refuse, and that bum dies, am I responsible? If he was refused by 50 people can we all be convicted of manslaughter? Negligent homicide?
My right to have money is no higher than another's right to live. A right to property and a right to life are on equal grounds in my book. I won't go into it any deeper here.
What if you give the money to a homeless man, he buys drugs, ODs and dies? Are we responsible then? Or is there a massive difference between giving money to an unsolicited recipient to spend in a potentially irresponsible way, and giving money to a cause you know will save lives or improve people's health?

Our problem isn't with how much you should pay, it's about the fact that you have some kind of fundamental objection ('moral' isn't the correct word) to helping at all. The right to life has a much higher priority to the right to property. If you have to have a slightly smaller TV so that someone else can have 40 years of life, man up and deal with it.

It's not about amount. It's about forcing people to pay what they don't want to pay.

See that's our problem right there. Fuck it, let's not have taxes at all! We don't need police forces, fire and rescue, sanitation, legal systems, public education, or health care or any of that crap! And then when poor kids don't get a decent education, turn to crime, aren't pro actively stopped by privately hired security outfits, start a fire which isn't put out because the privately hired fire fighters aren't contracted to work the poor areas which can't afford them, destroy a poor neighbour hood and force families into the streets to live in the waste which, once again, isn't dealt with because private contractors don't get paid to go there, riot in a manner only a centralised police force can handle, smash up your house and kill you, you'll be safe in the knowledge that at least YOU could afford all those things, that the people responsible will never be brought to justice because you won't be alive to finance the prosecution, and that the system WORKS!

Or, you could accept that it's your responsibility as a member of this society to help raise the standard of living. For everyone. Societies work because they work TOGETHER. That's what taxation IS.

[Allen]

I'm pretty sure it's a right not a privilege. Some people are more successful than others, some people have harder lives than others, and that's hardly ever a mutual correlation. You can't make health care conditional to earning it, that's beyond fucked up. Some people have a philosophical approach to life which is effectively encapsulated by 'life's for living, not for working'. I don't agree with it, but they're already punished for it with poverty and scorn, I don't see why we should deny them life and health as well. Besides which, how do you separate the lazy from the vulnerable or unlucky or fucked over? EVERYONE deserves medical care. Rich people, poor people, lazy people, death row inmates, everyone. They're all people.

You can't. That's why I don't truly believe the method I proposed would work in the real world. The only way is to have some government department look into someone's background. But that never works out, because it would run by a bunch of dipshits.

I was speaking hypothetically. In an ideal world, everyone would work for what they have. We aren't in an ideal world, so fully socialized health care is the easiest and most logical way to deal with this issue.

You wrote an awful lot in response to someone who agrees with you on 99.9% of this issue.

[Quadros]

The thing I objected to was the idea that not everyone deserves health care.

[Allen]

Social Darwinism rocks.

[The Fetus]

I know why the British, French, Germans and Spanish all got universal healthcare.

It's because they realized how foolish and destructive it was to run an empire and to colonize countries for things like oil, coal, gold and the like and put an end to spending tax dollars for pointless military exercises. America's not as old as these countries. I guess it'll be a while before we catch up. :frown:

Seriously? Why not introduce universal healthcare in America? We're the fucking richest country in the world. We can afford it.

I hate those bullshit right-wing arguments. They tell me, "Do you know how much Canadians hate their healthcare system?! They come to America to get it because they have such poor quality!" Americans go to Canada and marry Canadians to become citizens to get free care all the time. Canada also beats the US in the rank in healthcare quality.

And they even tell me that all citizens of countries with universal healthcare actually totally hate it and wish it was like ours; when in actuality, they would fight to teeth and bone to keep it just the way it is. For Christ sake! Even Third-World countries have it! We can afford it!

Seriously? What arguments does the opposition have? "NO! I wanna pay at the hospital!!" America's statement is basically, "Pay or Die."

[Stealth Prawn]

Let me get this straight Timbot. Are you opposed to all taxes, or just healthcare. Because if it's all taxes, like others have pointed out, you're a fucking moron. And if it's just healthcare, you're still a fucking moron. I live in Alberta, the "Texas" of Canada. Everyone is a hick, and we have semi-privatized healthcare. I don't know the details, but the long and short is that my dad, working for a multi billion dollar oil company, get's almost free healthcare. Even then, we have to pay hundreds for his life-saving medication, thousands every time he breaks a bone (he's 50, you know) and so on. Hell, we had to pay, just two days ago, $1800 for my sister's operation on her mouth. This is WITH great coverage. Now, jobs out here are pretty unstable, so let's say my dad gets fired, all of a sudden we have to pay 10x those amounts. How is this fair? I would easily give up our $150,000 salary for a healthcare system that isn't completely ass-backwards retarded.

[The Fetus]

One of my favorite arguments is, "The waiting lines are SO long! That causes unnecessary deaths!" HAHAHA! Let's talk about how many necessary deaths there are for people without health insurance. :roffle:

Fucking morons, I tell ya. Morons.

[Stealth Prawn]

One of my favorite arguments is, "The waiting lines are SO long! That causes unnecessary deaths!" HAHAHA! Let's talk about how many necessary deaths there are for people without health insurance. :roffle:

Fucking morons, I tell ya. Morons.

This argument is especially weak because any hospital worth it's salt will accept patients on a basis of need, not first come first serve. If you wait in line long enough that you die, it's probably because you had a runny nose and starved to death waiting. This is how you prevent people from abusing the system and going for every little thing, too. Nobody wants to wait long, and if they're not in bad shape, they're going to have to.

[stormoftara]

I hate how the people against this make it seem like poor people don't deserve to go to the doctor. I mean, sure rich people have to wait to see the doctor maybe, but what about those of us that because we can't afford to see the doctor at all, should we just die? Is it my fault my mother lost her job and I have to support my family now, and I can't afford health insurance?

[Tweek]

Yes.

[timbot]

What if you give the money to a homeless man, he buys drugs, ODs and dies? Are we responsible then? Or is there a massive difference between giving money to an unsolicited recipient to spend in a potentially irresponsible way, and giving money to a cause you know will save lives or improve people's health?
Ok, I'll hand that to you, my argument was not very good. But, when people claim I'm a killer because I don't support universal healthcare, it's pretty ridiculous. I'll go back to food, which has been brought up before. People starve to death daily all over the world. Are we all responsible for for those deaths? I mean certainly there is more that we can all give. At what point am I accountable for someone's death, and at what point is it just part of life on earth? Is it ok until it becomes a major political talking point? Is ok until most major countries start doing and then those who don't are killers?

Our problem isn't with how much you should pay, it's about the fact that you have some kind of fundamental objection ('moral' isn't the correct word) to helping at all. The right to life has a much higher priority to the right to property. If you have to have a slightly smaller TV so that someone else can have 40 years of life, man up and deal with it.
My objection is not with helping. If you haven't noticed I already suggested other ways people can help. My objection is with paying taxes. Nobody has the right take money from a person, even if it could save the life of anther.



See that's our problem right there. Fuck it, let's not have taxes at all! We don't need police forces, fire and rescue, sanitation, legal systems, public education, or health care or any of that crap! And then when poor kids don't get a decent education, turn to crime, aren't pro actively stopped by privately hired security outfits, start a fire which isn't put out because the privately hired fire fighters aren't contracted to work the poor areas which can't afford them, destroy a poor neighbour hood and force families into the streets to live in the waste which, once again, isn't dealt with because private contractors don't get paid to go there, riot in a manner only a centralised police force can handle, smash up your house and kill you, you'll be safe in the knowledge that at least YOU could afford all those things, that the people responsible will never be brought to justice because you won't be alive to finance the prosecution, and that the system WORKS!

Or, you could accept that it's your responsibility as a member of this society to help raise the standard of living. For everyone. Societies work because they work TOGETHER. That's what taxation IS.
Now, onto taxes, both what you said and what others have been saying. I'm opposed to taxes. That does not mean I'm opposed to all the things taxes currently pay for. I'm not even opposed to the idea of all people having health care. It's a great idea, a wonderful thought, but not one worth robbing others for.
I have a moral objection to taxation. However, I don't think we should do away with taxes immediately. There are lots of things that need to be paid for somehow: police, roads, fire dept., and on and on. We need to figure out how to pay for certain things without forced taxation. I think it's a wrong system on a philosophical level, but I'll admit that I don't have all the practical knowledge to explain how to live without taxes. But I think a good place to start is begin by cutting out a lot of unneeded things that are paid for by taxes. I'm not talking about health care here. There are tons of other things that are completely ridiculous that tax money supports. Misty brought up "keeping businesses afloat." That would make the top of my list of widely known things that are completely horrible to spend tax money on. But, there are plenty of other things that you can be opposed to even if you're quite happy with paying taxes. Along with getting rid of lots of superfluous tax-run programs, we also need to stop adding more things to the list--this is where health care comes in. It's not that I'm so much more against universal health care than other programs, it just happens to be a big one that people are talking about here.
I also really do believe a lot of people out there would give to charities and funds to help support the things taxes once handled. THAT is how people work together, not taxation.

[Antisaint]

How about a monthly fee for the land you're renting from the government? Or a deduction from your salary so the company can pay for its land rental and licensing fees and other services that the government presides over? Oh wait, that's taxation.

[BmphP]

I have a moral objection to taxation.


How could you have a "moral" objection to taxation. Money is not moral. Money is not "philisophical." Money is something created by society to make it function. Without money, we'd basically go back to stone age trading. How in god's name is money a moral thing? It's just something to make society work.

Abortion is a "moral" debate (though morals are subjective), money is not. Using money is not.

[Diane]

I also really do believe a lot of people out there would give to charities and funds to help support the things taxes once handled. THAT is how people work together, not taxation.
Realistically, many people wouldn't give to charities and such. The majority would want to take advantage of the fact that they don't have to pay taxes anymore and they would spend it on other wants. Also, even if a lot of people did chip in and make donations, it would not pay for as much as taxes currently pay.

[Antisaint]

How could you have a "moral" objection to taxation. Money is not moral. Money is not "philisophical." Money is something created by society to make it function. Without money, we'd basically go back to stone age trading. How in god's name is money a moral thing? It's just something to make society work.

Abortion is a "moral" debate (though morals are subjective), money is not. Using money is not.

Pretty sure he's objecting to taxation, not money. Basically, he objects to the idea that someone has the right to deprive someone else of something they earned without consent.

On the other side, I see tax more as payment for services rendered by the government. Whether you like those services or not doesn't matter, you can't pick and choose what you pay for. Like buying a computer only to play games. Even if that's all you want and want to pay for, you still get the operating system and what it encompasses, like a basic word processor and internet browser.

[PeeShaw]

I thought that I heard that its half a million dollars now? Am I right or am I losing my mind?

[Dubya]

The immediate goal is to make sure there are more people on private insurance plans. I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room.

I'm going to tell you something. We have fabulous health care in America, just so you know. I think it's very important — before people start griping about the health care system here — and of course there's always grounds for complaint — just to compare it with other systems around the world. And one of the reasons our system is expensive is because some of the new technologies that are coming online, they happen to be saving lives.

[Sanlands]

Yeah technically everyone has insurance. Since the emergency room can't lawfully turn you away if you're in an immediate life threatening condition.

I never thought of it that way.

[Dubya]

See, I was a damn good president.

[Casalen]

To help put some of the reason this matters into perspective: I need an extremely minor surgery before I can start working regularly again. The surgeon wants $2,000. I have no problem paying $2,000. I would be happy to, since I'll be making money after. The hospital provides a room for about half an hour, a little less, a couple of workers and a sterile environment. The less than an hour thing is important. They want around $18,000. For the most basic of procedures, certainly not expensive in material costs. The average person couldn't hope to pay for anything more important themselves.

I get the not wanting taxes thing, but there are much worse uses for taxes that should be examined before this.

[Tweek]

We have come far enough that we can progress, together as an entire species, beyond basic survival. We have the capacity to ensure everyone lives at a comfortable first world standard and beyond that we have the capacity to provide education, health care etc for ourselves. We should all be living the life we can afford ourselves.

That said, I can sympathise with timbot and his views on tax.

[opn4bzns]

Ok, I'll hand that to you, my argument was not very good. But, when people claim I'm a killer because I don't support universal healthcare, it's pretty ridiculous. I'll go back to food, which has been brought up before. People starve to death daily all over the world. Are we all responsible for for those deaths? I mean certainly there is more that we can all give. At what point am I accountable for someone's death, and at what point is it just part of life on earth? Is it ok until it becomes a major political talking point? Is ok until most major countries start doing and then those who don't are killers?

'I can't save everyone so I'm not going to save anyone'.
Obviously you can't save everyone in the world, no-one is arguing that. That is not a justification for refusing to give 1.4% of your income to improving the lives of thousands of people.

[Frobes]

Can't we all just be friends?

[BlackHood]

Can't we all just be friends?

Only if you pay for your own cancer treatment.

[Kaleb]

I know most of you won't understand this concept, but have you ever considered that maybe rich people are rich because they worked their asses off to earn their money? If I spent 16 years of my life in college, then another 16 years working myself to death to make money, I'd be pretty fucking annoyed if I have to give nearly half of it to people that didn't bother to get an education in the first place.

Yeah, I know, blah blah not everyone has that opportunity but I believe that there are more lazy poor people than there are poor people who have never had a single opportunity to move ahead here in America.

There are 2 different "Rich People", The kind that do work there ass off and make there money through effort. And theres also the rich that have there parents or family ties pay for anything and everything they want because they can. Our government is corrupt theres no reason to hide behind the little binding you think is actually there.

[BlackHood]

There are 2 different "Rich People", The kind that do work there ass off and make there money through effort. And theres also the rich that have there parents or family ties pay for anything and everything they want because they can. Our government is corrupt theres no reason to hide behind the little binding you think is actually there.

I bet contrary to your posts you're not an infant with Downs.

[MistyTehMoose]

Fuck you're a moron Timbot.

[timbot]

Pretty sure he's objecting to taxation, not money. Basically, he objects to the idea that someone has the right to deprive someone else of something they earned without consent.

On the other side, I see tax more as payment for services rendered by the government. Whether you like those services or not doesn't matter, you can't pick and choose what you pay for. Like buying a computer only to play games. Even if that's all you want and want to pay for, you still get the operating system and what it encompasses, like a basic word processor and internet browser.
Thanks for the support there on the taxation thing. That is exactly what I'm against. I am definitely not against money.
Interesting argument with the computer thing there. However, I don't think that analogy quite works. I see it more along the lines of someone putting a computer in my house without my asking for it. Then charging me for said computer whether I use it or not. Also, in your analogy I have the option of not buying a computer. I can go to the computer store and say "I want a computer that has no programs except the games I want." If they say they don't have that, I can either buy a computer with extras or I can just refuse to buy a computer at all. If I refuse, I don't have a computer. However, if a lot of people stop buying computers for the same reason, someone will start making computers that don't have all those extras. That's not how taxation works.

We have come far enough that we can progress, together as an entire species, beyond basic survival. We have the capacity to ensure everyone lives at a comfortable first world standard and beyond that we have the capacity to provide education, health care etc for ourselves. We should all be living the life we can afford ourselves.

That said, I can sympathise with timbot and his views on tax.

This is an interesting statement. And I agree all the up to the last sentence (of the first paragraph that is). The problem with trying to supply for everyone is how do you decide who gets what? How many of us decide on a daily basis what we want to eat? How many live in houses/apartments that you picked (or your parents picked)? Did you get to pick out your own clothes? If we want to ensure that everyone has a house, then some people are going to have to live in lesser houses than what they currently do. If we want to ensure that everyone in the world has enough food to live, we'll have to cut down on waste, and to do that we'll have to cut down on a lot of the choices. To ensure that everyone is living at a comfortable first world standard, someone would first have to decide what is "comfortable" for everyone in the world. Is having a TV "comfortable"? How big is it? Does one have to have a car to be "comfortable"? What kind of food must be given to be "comfortable"? This question goes on and on. It will bring some up, of course. And there will be the very rich who will be able to afford some of the things to keep them above the "comfortable" line, so it may not do much to them. However, others who are living fairly nice lives will be pulled down to this lowest level where they will have no choices about what they get because they won't have the money for it any more.

'I can't save everyone so I'm not going to save anyone'.
Obviously you can't save everyone in the world, no-one is arguing that. That is not a justification for refusing to give 1.4% of your income to improving the lives of thousands of people.
So, which thousands of people get their lives improved? If it is morally reprehensible to be against free health care for the very poor in America, isn't it just as terrible to choose to give those people health care when others all over the world can't even eat enough to live? You say I think the poor deserve to die. By your logic, it's only the poor in third-world countries who deserve death it seems.

And, Misty, thanks for that insightful, logical argument. I will take a long, hard look at the issues you presented.

[Quadros]

You can't morally object to tax. The idea that you should place the burden for providing public services to the entire community only on the people willing to make a contribution is at best hopelessly naive and at worst plainly and disgustingly selfish. A tax is the cost you pay to live in a decent society. If you're rich you have to pay more, because you're getting more out of the society than poorer people. You're benefiting more from it's conditions. All that tax does is redress hat balance by a tiny amount. It's like paying rent to the government for doing all kinds of shit for you.

As for your argument about the third world, I'm completely with you. I think that they deserve health care, food and a standard of living on the same level as us. I'd love for that to happen. But it won't happen over night, this is just progress toward that eventual goal.

[timbot]

You can't morally object to tax. The idea that you should place the burden for providing public services to the entire community only on the people willing to make a contribution is at best hopelessly naive and at worst plainly and disgustingly selfish. A tax is the cost you pay to live in a decent society. If you're rich you have to pay more, because you're getting more out of the society than poorer people. You're benefiting more from it's conditions. All that tax does is redress hat balance by a tiny amount. It's like paying rent to the government for doing all kinds of shit for you.

As for your argument about the third world, I'm completely with you. I think that they deserve health care, food and a standard of living on the same level as us. I'd love for that to happen. But it won't happen over night, this is just progress toward that eventual goal.

I can morally object to tax. I'm not placing the burden for public services on only those who willingly contribute. I'm saying those public services should be private services only for those willing to pay. And what cannot be privatized should be funded by voluntary means of some sort. You can call me selfish. Actually, I'll call myself selfish. I guess I don't see what's morally objectionable about wanting to keep what is mine. If I worked, got paid and purchased something, why is it wrong for me to want to keep it? How much must I share before I'm no longer selfish?
The problem with saying this is the price one pays for living in this society, is that one does not have a choice about paying taxes. I have no ability to say "I do not want this service, so I don't want this tax." If I could say "I want trash service provided by the local government, so I will pay the monthly amount you ask, but I rarely get ill and would rather take my chances paying my medical bills up front or through my own health insurance." That would be great.

On the third-world, why does the step of universal health care in the first-world come before providing enough food to those in the third-world?

[LaughBoo]

No, you cannot morally object to tax. There is absolutely nothing immoral about tax dollars, unless you consider hospitals, roads, judicial system, and firefighters immoral.

[The Fetus]

No, you cannot morally object to tax. There is absolutely nothing immoral about tax dollars, unless you consider hospitals, roads, judicial system, and firefighters immoral.

That's a really, really good point. Seriously Timbot, do you want to abolish all taxes or what? Don't tell me you're for that "standard flat tax" bullshit. Introduce that and then we'll see how fucked our economy'll be.

[Sanlands]

You object to the principle of taxation?

[poetryfreak]

I think that the health care system does need a lot of help. People can't afford to be taken care of properly. That's mostly because the FDA cut a few deals with the politicians (such as funding candidates). People in the USA take too many drugs too, often drugs they don't need. The unecessary drugs put a strain on the health care system.

[Remote]

I basically oppose taxing those who make work hard for what is earned, and giving to those who don't work. Be it from being unable to get a job, or out of pure laziness.

[Allen]

I can morally object to tax. I'm not placing the burden for public services on only those who willingly contribute. I'm saying those public services should be private services only for those willing to pay. And what cannot be privatized should be funded by voluntary means of some sort. You can call me selfish. Actually, I'll call myself selfish. I guess I don't see what's morally objectionable about wanting to keep what is mine. If I worked, got paid and purchased something, why is it wrong for me to want to keep it? How much must I share before I'm no longer selfish?
The problem with saying this is the price one pays for living in this society, is that one does not have a choice about paying taxes. I have no ability to say "I do not want this service, so I don't want this tax." If I could say "I want trash service provided by the local government, so I will pay the monthly amount you ask, but I rarely get ill and would rather take my chances paying my medical bills up front or through my own health insurance." That would be great.



Tell me one fucking logical way to privatize things like a police force and a justice system, then maybe your argument might be valid. For that matter, tell me how you'd expect a government to run without any form of money? If you take away taxation, you take away the means for a government to operate. Now, tell me one way for a country/state/city in this world to function without a government.

Now, since there aren't any logical answers for those things, it's only right that you would shut the fuck up.

[The_Solipsist]

When 45% of the country are not paying federal income taxes, do you think the 55% that do should pay for a health care system?

Tort reform is needed first and foremost, and we need to figure out why such a huge portion of the population won't or can't pay their taxes.

[BmphP]

It's unfortunate for timbot that this forum is so liberal. He's all alone in his arguments. This other forum I visit has a lot more of a mix between liberal/conservative/libertarian and they don't get attacked on their opinions as hard as timbot.

But since this is not that forum, fuck you timbot and you're anti-tax devil beliefs!

[Metalhead636]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The man must have his right to live, the government must help provide the unalienable rights to the man. In a society where people are as selfish as you, Timbot, the world would crash into the ground.

The loss of sloth in one group would provide life for another.

[The Fetus]

I basically oppose taxing those who make work hard for what is earned, and giving to those who don't work. Be it from being unable to get a job, or out of pure laziness.

I never understood the constant and popular belief that if someone doesn't have a job, it makes them lazy.

[The_Solipsist]

The man must have his right to live, the government must help provide the unalienable rights to the man. In a society where people are as selfish as you, Timbot, the world would crash into the ground.

The loss of sloth in one group would provide life for another.

You have the right to live, but not to health care. Following your logic, we all have the right to food and water.

I want my government-burgers!

Another thing, I agree with timbot. Maybe believing that people are good enough to give money voluntarily to these services is wrong. Maybe we should believe people are all selfish and bad.

[Stealth Prawn]

You have the right to live, but not to health care. Following your logic, we all have the right to food and water.

I want my government-burgers!

Another thing, I agree with timbot. Maybe believing that people are good enough to give money voluntarily to these services is wrong. Maybe we should believe people are all selfish and bad.

Well, in countries like Sweden, you do. In socialist countries, you have to literally try to become homeless/impoverished, or at least that's what I hear. The government provides food and housing at low or no cost to those who cannot afford it. And even then, you could say that because, at least in America, food is quite affordable, but health-care is not, they don't need government funded food programs.

It is wrong to think that not many people would donate to these programs. That's why Timbot is a retard. He thinks that people would magically pay for the judicial system, police officers, and more, just because they're rich as fuck. He doesn't seem to realize that then poor people wouldn't be able to have simple things like safety, and that it would make it much harder to escape poverty.

[Hypocrite]

I am against the health care reform. From what I skimmed over it and this thread, I am thinking that Obama is wanting to make business owners pay X percentage of tax, while all the "hard working middle class" pays X amount, and the poor people who already live off welfare can get free expensive hospital treatments.

Correct me if I am wrong on anything above this.

Now, assuming that is true, my family would be taxed the most, because my dad owns his own business. However, we don't make as much money each year as most middle-class people that work for large corporations.

I think Obama's plan is mostly supposed to be aimed to get support from the people that think "my boss is making a killing off of me and we pay the same amount!" Unfortunately for people like me, the percentage of people that think that is much higher than the people like my family that are thinking "Fuck. Things were already tight."

As I stated, however, I have not read much about this, so please inform me if I have misunderstood something.

[Allen]

It's unfortunate for timbot that this forum is so liberal. He's all alone in his arguments. This other forum I visit has a lot more of a mix between liberal/conservative/libertarian and they don't get attacked on their opinions as hard as timbot.

But since this is not that forum, fuck you timbot and you're anti-tax devil beliefs!

It's not that. I mean, I'm fairly conservative in many areas. I'm not bashing him because he's conservative. I'm bashing him because he's a fucking idiot that thinks a country can be run in this day and age without taxation.

[Metalhead636]

You have the right to live, but not to health care. Following your logic, we all have the right to food and water.

Yes, yes I do. If someone has no health care, and they die, then they don't have, you know, life.

[Hypocrite]

Yes, yes I do. If someone has no health care, and they die, then they don't have, you know, life.

I haven't been to the hospital or taken any medicine (spare some OTC motion sickness pills when snowmobiling) except for shots since I was in kindergarten and I'm not dead yet.

And shots are already free if you have no available way to pay, so oh well.

ALSO: If people can get free health care, I can't wait to see all the malpractice lawsuits from people who didn't pay for the care in the first place.

[Metalhead636]

I haven't been to the hospital or taken any medicine (spare some OTC motion sickness pills when snowmobiling) except for shots since I was in kindergarten and I'm not dead yet.
.

See buddy, not everybody has the same immune system as you. You may not get sick, the next guy may get a fucking brain tumor. You may stay safe while snowmobiling, the next guy may get hit by a snowmobile.
Not everyone has the same medical condition you fucking retard.

[The_Solipsist]

ALSO: If people can get free health care, I can't wait to see all the malpractice lawsuits from people who didn't pay for the care in the first place.

This is why tort reform HAS to take place first.

[Hypocrite]

BIG WORDS

Yeah that's kinda the response I was looking for. You said that if someone has no health care, they die. That is untrue. Besides, alot of people in third-world countries do fine with little or no health care

[Quadros]

I haven't been to the hospital or taken any medicine (spare some OTC motion sickness pills when snowmobiling) except for shots since I was in kindergarten and I'm not dead yet.

And shots are already free if you have no available way to pay, so oh well.

ALSO: If people can get free health care, I can't wait to see all the malpractice lawsuits from people who didn't pay for the care in the first place.

But if your right to life was endangered it's up to the government to protect it. That's why we have a police force, that's why health care should be universal and free. Your complaint about being taxed too heavily is pretty much moot as you'd probably pay a comparable amount in tax as you do now in personal and corporate health insurance.

Also you're complaining about this while openly saying that the only health care you've received is the stuff freely provided by the government?

Finally call me an idiot but I'm pretty sure malpractice lawsuits are based on 'hey jackass your mistake cost me my health' not 'hey this isn't what I ordered!'

[Metalhead636]

Yeah that's kinda the response I was looking for. You said that if someone has no health care, they die. That is untrue. Besides, alot of people in third-world countries do fine with little or no health care

If someone has no health care, they could die. I never said they will die. It depends on the condition, like I said, everyone has a different health condition. One guy may have the flu, the next could have a fucking brain tumor.

Also, define "a lot of people", because as far as I know, the majority of those nations are getting fucked over.

[BmphP]

Yeah that's kinda the response I was looking for. You said that if someone has no health care, they die. That is untrue. Besides, alot of people in third-world countries do fine with little or no health care

oh my god you are retarded. People who are sick and get no health care will die. Not people who get a cold and get no health care, people who are SICK and get no health care.

People in 3rd world countries that are not sick and still get health care are fine because they are not sick

[Sanlands]

You're not born with those rights really. It's more like we're an advanced enough society to provide healthcare for all.

[Quadros]

Yeah that's kinda the response I was looking for. You said that if someone has no health care, they die. That is untrue. Besides, alot of people in third-world countries do fine with little or no health care

Yeah that sure explains poverty stricken areas of Africa having the highest instances of preventable, life threatening diseases and HIV in the world. Dumbass.

[BmphP]

You're not born with those rights really. It's more like we're an advanced enough society to provide healthcare for all.

I agree!

[Hypocrite]

But if your right to life was endangered it's up to the government to protect it. That's why we have a police force, that's why health care should be universal and free. Your complaint about being taxed too heavily is pretty much moot as you'd probably pay a comparable amount in tax as you do now in personal and corporate health insurance.

Nah I like Tim's idea of paying for the police if you want them.

Also you're complaining about this while openly saying that the only health care you've received is the stuff freely provided by the government?

No, not free, I paid for them. They ARE available if you cannot pay though. I don't really have a point to make there. Or anywhere. I just like seeing you rant.

Finally call me an idiot but I'm pretty sure malpractice lawsuits are based on 'hey jackass your mistake cost me my health' not 'hey this isn't what I ordered!'

People get malpractice lawsuits because of lots of things. There was a case where someone sued a doctor because the doctor didn't give him an MRI for a headache.

Also, define "a lot of people", because as far as I know, the majority of those nations are getting fucked over.

A lot of people: google "Population of _______"

[Quadros]

Nah I like Tim's idea of paying for the police if you want them.
Of course you do. Never mind that the police are probably the most demonstrable instance of those most unable to afford a service needing it most. Question: are you trolling, or are you really that much of a dipshit?



No, not free, I paid for them. They ARE available if you cannot pay though. I don't really have a point to make there. Or anywhere. I just like seeing you rant.
the point you're making is 'I'm dumb as fuck', so far.


People get malpractice lawsuits because of lots of things. There was a case where someone sued a doctor because the doctor didn't give him an MRI for a headache.

And is this the case where that guy turned out to have cancer, or the one where he had epilepsy? In both cases the doctor's negligence failed to diagnose the condition and prevented suitable treatment, further detrimenting the patient's health. WHAT A STUPID LAWSUIT.

[Antisaint]

Yeah, malpractice is malpractice regardless of payment or procedure. People who try to sue for stupid reasons just lose and lose their money.

[Hypocrite]

Ok, you want a serious post?

First off, I have a question.

Smokers, alcoholics, drug addicts: Do they have to pay more? Statistically, they are prone to more diseases than non-smokers in pretty much every category ever.

If this bill passes, what is stopping me from going to the doctor whenever I have a runny nose or a slight cough? Why can I not demand an MRI whenever I have a headache? What reason do I have to try and stay healthy?

[WoeGuy]

Why would you want to be UNhealthy?

[Hypocrite]

Why would you want to be UNhealthy?

I don't, but right now I put quite a bit of effort into staying out of the hospital, because it's fucking expensive. Why bother if it's all free?

[Metalhead636]

I don't, but right now I put quite a bit of effort into staying out of the hospital, because it's fucking expensive. Why bother if it's all free?

Because I doubt anybody would go get themselves hurt just so they can cheat the system.

[Hypocrite]

Because I doubt anybody would go get themselves hurt just so they can cheat the system.

I don't necessarily mean hurt myself. I mean get the flu, let my immune system go to shit? If I can get free medicine, it might be worth not bothering.

[Ollivak]

I don't necessarily mean hurt myself. I mean get the flu, let my immune system go to shit? If I can get free medicine, it might be worth not bothering.I don't know about you, but when I was a kid and had no real understanding about what money really was, I hated getting the flu anyway.

[Stealth Prawn]

Ok, you want a serious post?
If this bill passes, what is stopping me from going to the doctor whenever I have a runny nose or a slight cough? Why can I not demand an MRI whenever I have a headache? What reason do I have to try and stay healthy?

Because, dipshit- hospitals with socialized medicine serve on a basis of necessity. Nobody's stopping you from going to the ER with a runny nose, but you'll be waiting a long time. Possibly even indefinitely. Same with the MRI- someone who has the symptoms of a serious disease are going to get in before you, meaning you have to wait until you have the most serious case and want an MRI.

[Hypocrite]

I don't know about you, but when I was a kid and had no real understanding about what money really was, I hated getting the flu anyway.

A day off work didn't happen when you were a kid either.

Because, dipshit- hospitals with socialized medicine serve on a basis of necessity. Nobody's stopping you from going to the ER with a runny nose, but you'll be waiting a long time. Possibly even indefinitely. Same with the MRI- someone who has the symptoms of a serious disease are going to get in before you, meaning you have to wait until you have the most serious case and want an MRI.

Ok, going back to what Quadros said


And is this the case where that guy turned out to have cancer, or the one where he had epilepsy? In both cases the doctor's negligence failed to diagnose the condition and prevented suitable treatment, further detrimenting the patient's health. WHAT A STUPID LAWSUIT.


Would I be able to sue for malpractice if I had a serious problem?

[Casalen]

Smokers, alcoholics, drug addicts: Do they have to pay more? Statistically, they are prone to more diseases than non-smokers in pretty much every category ever.

Yeah, actually. Taxes on cigarettes are a normal thing, and a lot of that goes to health care for the same theory. Although I agree that drug addicts shouldn't abuse the system like they do, it's pretty hard to say where the line is drawn.

Here's the thing about the taxes issue. Maybe a total free market could have its benefits... but if it happened right now, it wouldn't work that way. The country wouldn't be equalized to hard work and ability. Instead, on the day public services shut down, the people who are wealthy right that moment will become permanently in charge. That's completely against the theory of our semi-capitalist society.

Most arguments against public services fall apart when the other public services are examined. If there were no military, no police, no emergency services... there wouldn't be a country very much longer, so I guess there wouldn't be a problem.

[BmphP]

Because I doubt anybody would go get themselves hurt just so they can cheat the system.

aahahahaaha I can't believe what hypocrite is posting right now. This is hilarious.

[Stealth Prawn]

A day off work didn't happen when you were a kid either.



Ok, going back to what Quadros said




Would I be able to sue for malpractice if I had a serious problem?

Yes. Going back to what Quadros said, it's not that you didn't get what you ordered, it's that you got hurt by their negligence. If a doctor fucks you up, you sue him. Doesn't matter if you paid him or not.

I think you're trying to ask me about a situation in which a person with no problems goes in, abuses the system, gets fucked up, and sues. Yes, this is fair, because even if they're abusing it, the doctor fucked them up. That's if they even get past the waiting room.

[Hypocrite]

aahahahaaha I can't believe what hypocrite is posting right now. This is hilarious.

Everything I posted since I got off work is legitimate questions.

Yes. Going back to what Quadros said, it's not that you didn't get what you ordered, it's that you got hurt by their negligence. If a doctor fucks you up, you sue him. Doesn't matter if you paid him or not.

I think you're trying to ask me about a situation in which a person with no problems goes in, abuses the system, gets fucked up, and sues. Yes, this is fair, because even if they're abusing it, the doctor fucked them up. That's if they even get past the waiting room.

Ok, so if I went into the waiting room with a headache, and then eventually it was found out I had cancer, I could sue because the doctor fucked me up?

GO OBAMA!

[Stealth Prawn]

Ok, so if I went into the waiting room with a headache, and then eventually it was found out I had cancer, I could sue because the doctor fucked me up?

This seems like a fuck-tarded question. No, because YOU HAD CANCER. A doctor doesn't give you cancer. A malpractice suit is if a doctor leaves a scalpel in you during surgery or something, not him diagnosing a disease you have.

[Hypocrite]

This seems like a fuck-tarded question. No, because YOU HAD CANCER. A doctor doesn't give you cancer. A malpractice suit is if a doctor leaves a scalpel in you during surgery or something, not him diagnosing a disease you have.

Well if I have a headache, he gives me tylenol and tells me to leave (happened in said cancer case) then he screwed up by not giving me an MRI, right?

[Stealth Prawn]

No, because you exhibited no other symptoms of cancer. He had no reason for testing for cancer. However, you should be tested for cancer and other diseases periodically. If he saw a tumor in one of those tests and prescribed you Tylenol, then you could sue for malpractice.

[Metalhead636]

Well if I have a headache, he gives me tylenol and tells me to leave (happened in said cancer case) then he screwed up by not giving me an MRI, right?

Under that logic, I could go to the doctor for a sore throat, he checks that out. He leaves, I find out i have something in a completely different area, an area he didn't check. It is his fault?

[Tweek]

Um. I don't want to get involved in all this but I'll just reply to something timbot asked.
I'll do it from memory since I can't be bothered finding the post again.

I wasn't actually proposing we all switch over to communism or any fully government run system, that could actually be pretty horrible.
I just meant that the poor should be living at a minimum standard enabled by first-world-class social services like decent education and all that shit. Like if the poor lived how I am living as lower-middle class Australian, with access to all the public services my little heart desires. Even beyond that, depending on how much we can afford.
If the world pooled everything together we could all be living well. I refuse to believe that the screwing over of developing economies element is necessary for a developed economy to prosper.

In sum, I meant equity, not necessarily equality.

[Hypocrite]

Screwing over everyone else is how we got this far, though. Why break tradition?

Under that logic, I could go to the doctor for a sore throat, he checks that out. He leaves, I find out i have something in a completely different area, an area he didn't check. It is his fault?

That was a real case. Apparently it is. I was using that as an example of how retarded it is.

[Stealth Prawn]

Obviously it's the judge's fault for being such a moron, not the system's. There's always going to be stupid people filing stupid suits.

[Allen]

If this bill passes, what is stopping me from going to the doctor whenever I have a runny nose or a slight cough? Why can I not demand an MRI whenever I have a headache? What reason do I have to try and stay healthy?

Uh... I don't know about you, but I stay healthy because I dislike feeling like shit. Not to avoid hospital expenses. So basically you're saying that if it was free you would love to be in the hospital, sick as fuck, all the time.

You are fucking retarded.

[Hypocrite]

Uh... I don't know about you, but I stay healthy because I dislike feeling like shit. Not to avoid hospital expenses. So basically you're saying that if it was free you would love to be in the hospital, sick as fuck, all the time.

You are fucking retarded.

I never claimed to be sane, smart, or anything else. Free housing, food, medicine? Why not?

And that wasn't the main part of the post.

[Stealth Prawn]

Because you FEEL LIKE SHIT.

Jesus, you're stupid.

[BmphP]

I can't wait to go to go on vacation to Britain and get sick on purpose. My main tourists destinations are all hospitals. FREE HOSPITALS.

[Mr. Crow]

Hey I heard about this one time where a guy sued for something and got a lot of money. I don't exactly know the specifics and can't cite it, but I heard about it.

Obviously, if a jury of twelve people deliberated after a case and awarded damages, there was a legitimate reason to sue for malpractice, you idiot.

[Remote]

OK this is over.

Edit: back up.

[Remote]

In looking for a way to fund healthcare, Obama has set his eye on the oldest and sickest. You see, according to the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, about 30 percent of Medicare spending (nearly $100 billion annually) goes to care for patients during their last year of life. What if there were no 'last year of life,' the president seems to be asking. ... Why not save billions of dollars by killing off our own unproductive oldsters and terminal patients, or – since we aren't likely to do that outright in this, the 21st century – why not simply ensure that they die faster by denying them costly medical care? The savings could then subsidize care for the younger and healthier.

[Antisaint]

As practical as that sounds, it's also horrible morally. They worked throughout their lives, stayed healthy enough to live as long as they did etc. etc. Why should we deny healthcare to someone who has already made their contribution to society so we can give it to those who potentially will not?

[John Travolta]

Didn't read this thread, posting anyways.

[Remote]

http://forums.explosm.net/image2.php?u=538&dateline=1246036323

USER WAS PUT IN TIMEOUT FOR THIS POST. (http://forums.explosm.net/eventlog.php)
Reason: Contribute.

[Hypocrite]

In looking for a way to fund healthcare, Obama has set his eye on the oldest and sickest. You see, according to the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, about 30 percent of Medicare spending (nearly $100 billion annually) goes to care for patients during their last year of life. What if there were no 'last year of life,' the president seems to be asking. ... Why not save billions of dollars by killing off our own unproductive oldsters and terminal patients, or – since we aren't likely to do that outright in this, the 21st century – why not simply ensure that they die faster by denying them costly medical care? The savings could then subsidize care for the younger and healthier.

Nevermind, I suddenly like this plan.

[Diki]

In looking for a way to fund healthcare, Obama has set his eye on the oldest and sickest. You see, according to the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, about 30 percent of Medicare spending (nearly $100 billion annually) goes to care for patients during their last year of life. What if there were no 'last year of life,' the president seems to be asking. ... Why not save billions of dollars by killing off our own unproductive oldsters and terminal patients, or – since we aren't likely to do that outright in this, the 21st century – why not simply ensure that they die faster by denying them costly medical care? The savings could then subsidize care for the younger and healthier.

Well jeez that's not very nice of him

[BmphP]

Obama's health plan is socialed medicine!!! We will turn into soviet russia if we took it!!!! He's going to kill everyone after taking their money!!!! He wasn't born in america!!!

[Casalen]

Plus, we all have to have crystals in our hands that change color every seven years and then say when we have to be killed which is age 30. Obama said they aren't even going to ask how we want to die because there aren't enough government workers AND I KNOW HE WAS SERIOUS BECAUSE I KNOW.

USER WAS PUT IN TIMEOUT FOR THIS POST. (http://forums.explosm.net/eventlog.php)
Reason: Thread shitting.

[Revenance]

Ok, you want a serious post?

First off, I have a question.

Smokers, alcoholics, drug addicts: Do they have to pay more? Statistically, they are prone to more diseases than non-smokers in pretty much every category ever.

If this bill passes, what is stopping me from going to the doctor whenever I have a runny nose or a slight cough? Why can I not demand an MRI whenever I have a headache? What reason do I have to try and stay healthy?

You're right, what is stopping you from throwing yourself down the stairs except hospital bills? I'm sure loads of people would harm themselves to get that tasty tasty hospital food.

[Revenance]

Plus, we all have to have crystals in our hands that change color every seven years and then say when we have to be killed which is age 30. Obama said they aren't even going to ask how we want to die because there aren't enough government workers AND I KNOW HE WAS SERIOUS BECAUSE I KNOW.

30 isn't a multiple of 7.

[Casalen]

It is if Obama decides to change math, which I heard he's going to do just because he can.

[Hypocrite]

It is if Obama decides to change math, which I heard he's going to do just because he can.

I would if I were him, I want to be able to divide by 0 and get sandwich.

[Revenance]

He's going to need change a lot of math to make health care reform a good idea.

[Poopymo]

It should be easier to implement this than the NHS was because America at least has an idea of the faults that would come up early on based on how it worked in Britain and Canada etc.

The NHS isn't a perfect system but it's sure as fuck better than paying for health insurance and a lot god damn fairer too.

[cptlol]

Unless you are talking about a different country, I thought it was more around the 40% mark (more or less).

I was only taking my own country in regard, when I posted that. I have no knowledge of any other country tax-box.

The Netherlands has 4:
1st box 0 - 17.878 2,35%
2nd box 17.878 tot € 32.127 10,85%
3rd box 32.127 tot € 54.776 42%
4th box >€ 54.776 52%
Why the fuck do we not have a good health care system yet? My family got fucked over when my mum got cancer a few years back.

We got it the first time, y'know.


"Free" healthcare is not a right, it should be earned, be payed for, it is utterly retarded to have working people pay for those who won't work(not can't work, but WON'T work).

[morethan6inches]

Tell me again why I should pay for someone elses healthcare?

They don't put food on my table, gas in my car, clothes on my back. I have my own family to worry about, I don't need yours dragging me down.

[dickbutt]

You'll pay the same amount in tax as you do in health insurance and if you get in financial trouble and get sick, you'll still be able to get health care.

That's why.

[BlackHood]

Tell me again why I should pay for someone elses healthcare?

They don't put food on my table, gas in my car, clothes on my back. I have my own family to worry about, I don't need yours dragging me down.

Because if get ill just once a half decent hospital and two weeks of treatment will cost more than $100,000. You cannot afford this, but 100,000 workers each paying $1 can afford this.

You don't have to pay for someone else, and no one has to pay for you, but if they didn't you wouldn't be able to foot the bill.

[opn4bzns]

Tell me again why I should pay for someone elses healthcare?

They don't put food on my table, gas in my car, clothes on my back. I have my own family to worry about, I don't need yours dragging me down.

Why do (some) americans have this retarded 'lone star' complex? You aren't alone defending your family from the hordes of attackers, you're a part of a functioning society. You support it, it supports you. In order for it to do the same for everyone, everyone who can afford it pays a small amount.

[BlackHood]

I think he was just being a dick. No one can honestly think like that unless they've never actually lived in the real world. He's either stupid or 12.

[Revenance]

You'll pay the same amount in tax as you do in health insurance and if you get in financial trouble and get sick, you'll still be able to get health care.

That's why.

Wrong. If you make 40k+ USD a year, you will paying more for healthcare, and over quadruple at 250k a year.

[Plut]

There are several reasons why this health care reform should not pass.

1. It is socialized medicine in which the government will have control over what doctor you see and which prescriptions you can take and which operations you can have. Besides that when has the government run anything right? Think of the US Post Office, Social Security(Broke) Medicare(Broke) Medicaid(Broke).

2. We already have over a 1trillion dollar deficit thanks to Barack Obama. And this health reform will cost over 1.6trillion we cant afford it.

3. There are other alternatives one of them would be putting punitive caps on malpractice suits. The reason why insurance costs so much and why doctors fees are so high is because of all the damn lawsuits taken out against doctors for things unpreventable. This is also why you have to go take tons of testing before a diagnosis doctors and scared of being sued.

I read through some of your comments and I hear free health care. Have any of you ever heard... Nothing in life is free. Its going to come out in your taxes now think about that.

The Richest 1% will be paying over 50% of the taxes to help the less fortunate. So its a take from the rich and give to the poor. Or leveling the playing field for all. This is called Socialism or Communism. This is not what America is about.

I am hopeful that in 2010 that the house and the senate turn over. And if the democrats keep talking they are just tightening the noose even more.

[dickbutt]

You don't know anything. Like, you don't even need to know anything to contribute to the discussion.
What you 'know' is misinformation. They are lies.
Everything you know on this subject is a lie.

Like, you know nothing about socialised medicine as a system, nothing about the American CAD, nothing about socialism or communism, nothing about the Democrats.

I'm just reading through your post and it just blows my mind how misinformed you are.

[Plut]

Let me ask you this dick, if you are right and I am misinformed and this reform is so great. How come its becoming more and more clear the the American people do not want this? And why are the democratic leaders canceling there town hall meetings about this.

Look at the facts, we as a people do not want this.

[dickbutt]

It's not about the reform being great and right, it's just about you not knowing what you were talking about.
You can oppose the reform all you want but in the meantime you'll still be horribly misinformed.

[Revenance]

It's not about the reform being great and right, it's just about you not knowing what you were talking about.
You can oppose the reform all you want but in the meantime you'll still be horribly misinformed.

Everything he said was right. Everything he said was facts. You haven't said anything except misinformation I already corrected you once, learn from it . You have no legs to stand on whenyou call HIM full of shit. Study up before you talk.

[Quadros]

There are several reasons why this health care reform should not pass.

1. It is socialized medicine in which the government will have control over what doctor you see and which prescriptions you can take and which operations you can have. Besides that when has the government run anything right? Think of the US Post Office, Social Security(Broke) Medicare(Broke) Medicaid(Broke).
The police force? Sanitation?

2. We already have over a 1trillion dollar deficit thanks to Barack Obama. And this health reform will cost over 1.6trillion we cant afford it.
Technically you have a 1trillion deficit BECAUSE of the fuck ups and retarded conservative economic dick sucking of Bush's 8 years. Basically Obama had to choose, as his first act as president, between 1trillion dollar debt or no economy, period. Sure he could have said 'fuck it, every man for themselves' but he didn't because he actually cares about other people.

3. There are other alternatives one of them would be putting punitive caps on malpractice suits. The reason why insurance costs so much and why doctors fees are so high is because of all the damn lawsuits taken out against doctors for things unpreventable. This is also why you have to go take tons of testing before a diagnosis doctors and scared of being sued.
I I agree that malpractice lawsuits are morally bankrupt in many cases, but at the same time hat cap puts a maximum worth on a person's health or life. Yes, malpractice law has scared doctors into doing their job properly. How terrible.

I read through some of your comments and I hear free health care. Have any of you ever heard... Nothing in life is free. Its going to come out in your taxes now think about that.
We've discussed it. 90% of us are more than ok with it. Taxes are the price you pay to live in a society. I can't see a problem with paying more to live in a better, more developed and humanitarian society.

The Richest 1% will be paying over 50% of the taxes to help the less fortunate. So its a take from the rich and give to the poor. Or leveling the playing field for all. This is called Socialism or Communism. This is not what America is about.
Since when? I'm pretty sure America is about second chances, 'freedom and justice for all'? Isn't that somewhere in your constitution? How about 'All people equal among God'? Ringing any bells? America has always been about equality and fairness, get your head out of Nixon's ass and get over yourself. I'm not sure if you heard, but Robin Hood was a GOOD GUY. So the richest 1% pay 50% tax. Guess what? THEY'RE STILL BILLIONARES! 1 billion dollars is enough to live comfortably on for an entire life time, turns out. It doesn't really make a difference how many you have at that point.

[Plut]

The police force? Sanitation?

The Police and Sanitation is State Run, not Federal.


Technically you have a 1trillion deficit BECAUSE of the fuck ups and retarded conservative economic dick sucking of Bush's 8 years. Basically Obama had to choose, as his first act as president, between 1trillion dollar debt or no economy, period. Sure he could have said 'fuck it, every man for themselves' but he didn't because he actually cares about other people.

That is incorrect. The 1trillion dollars is Barack Obamas Bailouts and Stimulus bill. He is the first president in history to have a 1trillion dollar deficit in 6 months of office.




I I agree that malpractice lawsuits are morally bankrupt in many cases, but at the same time hat cap puts a maximum worth on a person's health or life. Yes, malpractice law has scared doctors into doing their job properly. How terrible.

No it does not make them do a better job it makes them have a longer more expensive process to the final solution. Its one of Obamas talking points about too many tests. Well if he feels that way for real then he should do the punitive cap.


We've discussed it. 90% of us are more than ok with it. Taxes are the price you pay to live in a society. I can't see a problem with paying more to live in a better, more developed and humanitarian society.

Well I don't know about you but I dont make a whole lot of money, I have a mortgage a wife and a baby on the way and I dont want to pay more in taxes so some person who didnt work so hard can get a free lunch.


Since when? I'm pretty sure America is about second chances, 'freedom and justice for all'? Isn't that somewhere in your constitution? How about 'All people equal among God'? Ringing any bells? America has always been about equality and fairness, get your head out of Nixon's ass and get over yourself. I'm not sure if you heard, but Robin Hood was a GOOD GUY. So the richest 1% pay 50% tax. Guess what? THEY'RE STILL BILLIONARES! 1 billion dollars is enough to live comfortably on for an entire life time, turns out. It doesn't really make a difference how many you have at that point.

Fine then if you want equality then lets make the taxes be the same across the board. 50% tax for all. And as stated they are still billionaires well sir if i made $1,000,000 and I got a $500,000 check. I would move somewhere where I get more of what I earned. And if that were to happen, the richer 1% move away from this country, where does that tax burden lie at that point?

Think about these before you speak!

[The Fetus]

Let me ask you this dick, if you are right and I am misinformed and this reform is so great. How come its becoming more and more clear the the American people do not want this? And why are the democratic leaders canceling there town hall meetings about this.

Look at the facts, we as a people do not want this.

The American people (as well as the majority of physicians) have made it very clear that what they want is universal healthcare like all the other sensible countries.

[timbot]

Because if get ill just once a half decent hospital and two weeks of treatment will cost more than $100,000. You cannot afford this, but 100,000 workers each paying $1 can afford this.

You don't have to pay for someone else, and no one has to pay for you, but if they didn't you wouldn't be able to foot the bill.

Didn't you just completely contradict yourself there? Nobody has to pay for anybody else? Yes, they do if it's being taken out of their taxes. That's the whole debate here.
Also, since when does nobody have insurance? These examples are always given of someone getting sick and getting a huge bill with the point being they can't afford it. But, the majority of Americans do have insurance. Those who do have decent insurance can afford a stay in the hospital. Also, there are all those rich assholes out there that keep getting brought up in this thread. They'd also be able to afford it. So, you can't really say "you wouldn't be able to foot the bill," which such a universal connotation.
On a slightly different note--and this isn't rhetorical--how many Americans who don't have insurance really could afford it? I always think of the number of people I've known who say they can't afford health insurance, but still manage to scrape together enough money to hit the bar, buy their cigarettes, pay for an Internet connection, purchase drugs, and the list goes on. I really don't want to be misunderstood here. I know it's not easy to always make the responsible choices. I went for 2 years without insurance when I probably could have afforded some coverage at least if I had handled my money better. So, I'm not trying to say I'm better than those people. I'm also not trying to present this as a comprehensive argument against socialize health care. But, I really do think people have to set their priorities and stick to them. If your priority is to spend $5 a day on cigarettes and that is what's stopping you from getting insurance, then that's your choice. If you get sick, too damn bad. I know it sounds harsh, and I know that situation doesn't apply to everyone--that's why I wonder how many it does apply to--but I don't think it is the governments job to hold all of our hands.


It's not about the reform being great and right, it's just about you not knowing what you were talking about.
You can oppose the reform all you want but in the meantime you'll still be horribly misinformed.

If you're so horribly well informed, like, you need to be informed on here. Like, then why don't you set things straight? Like, instead of typing like a valley girl, give us some statistics or definitions to back yourself up?
For example, it seems that the plans suggested will raise the health care costs video thing (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/07/the-health-care-reform-price-tag.html), and some written stuff (http://usgovinfo.about.com/b/2009/07/22/health-care-reform-costs-up-support-down.htm). And Here's a good one about who will get the short end of the stick under currently proposed plans right here. (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203517304574306303720472842.html)

[Revenance]

The only people that deserve health care are people with a job and or a mental/physical disability. That's life, if you want something you have to earn it. I don't want to pay for some lazy drug addicts health care when I can't afford a PS3, and a private jet AND a 100 inch tv.

[The Fetus]

The only people that deserve health care are people with a job and or a mental/physical disability. That's life, if you want something you have to earn it.

Bullshit. What the fuck would I want a government for if they're not meeting real needs of real people? When you live in the richest, most powerful country in the world, you can do better than your philosophy of "that's life".

[Revenance]

Bullshit. What the fuck would I want a government for if they're not meeting real needs of real people? When you live in the richest, most powerful country in the world, you can do better than your philosophy of "that's life".

So when I work my ass of to buy my Xbox, I should just give it up so some lazy drug addict wants an operation that was cuased by his drug addiction.

[Plut]

The American people (as well as the majority of physicians) have made it very clear that what they want is universal healthcare like all the other sensible countries.


Go ask your doctor about this subject and see what he says. I have seen the polls and have been watching this bill since it first came up and I am happy to see that Barack Obama doesnt even have the full support of the Democratic party let alone the American people.

[Revenance]

This might make me a bad person, but I'd rather keep what I earned and buy MYSELF xbox live.

[The Fetus]

Well if you have to pay taxes anyway, why not use those taxes to help someone? Why would you wanna do that? Because I'd do the same for you. And so would the American people.

[Plut]

Bullshit. What the fuck would I want a government for if they're not meeting real needs of real people? When you live in the richest, most powerful country in the world, you can do better than your philosophy of "that's life".

This is a capitalist nation its a free market system.

Do you know what that means? It means that if you want to be something you can do it and be successful with hard work and dedication. Thats why we have people flocking in from Europe Canada Cuba and Mexico. How often do you hear of an American being and illegal alien in some other country? We are the best we do not need Socialized medicine we have the best healthcare in the world and the statistics prove it.

This is not about you or the poor its about control. He has the banks the car companies and now he wants your health care, and if you watched him in his ABC broadcast some bureaucrat somewhere will be making the end of life decisions for your parents your grandparents you and your kids. They will decide if your life is worth saving. Is this what you want?

[Revenance]

Well I don't need thier help, since I have a fucking job.

@Fetsus

[timbot]

Well if you have to pay taxes anyway, why not use those taxes to help someone?
Who says you have to pay taxes anyway? Of course nobody agrees with me there.
Or, I'll say this and be less radical: Since when does paying one amount of taxes justify paying more?
When you buy things do you always buy the top of the line? If you're going to spend money anyway, why not spend that money buying something nicer?

[Plut]

Well if you have to pay taxes anyway, why not use those taxes to help someone? Why would you wanna do that? Because I'd do the same for you. And so would the American people.

The taxes aren't going to stay the same they are going to increase by a large amount. I don't know your situation but can you afford more tax dollars from your check?

[The Fetus]

Well I don't need thier help, since I have a fucking job.

I'm sure you'll say that still when you become bankrupt from paying off your medical bill when your health insurance company decides to cheat you out of a benefit.

The taxes aren't going to stay the same they are going to increase by a large amount. I don't know your situation but can you afford more tax dollars from your check?
See, if you did the math, you'd realize that you'd save more money than paying for your health insurance.

It's a lot less expensive to pay for it through taxes than all that money you pay a month for health insurance.

[timbot]

I'm sure you'll say that still when you become bankrupt from paying off your medical bill when your health insurance company decides to cheat you out of a benefit.
If an insurance company cheats you out of benefits they promised to you, they run the risk of losing business. If the government cheats you out benefits promised to you in a plan you were forced to buy into, what risk do they have? You certainly don't have the choice to walk away.

Also, saving money by paying through taxes is highly debatable. The Wall Street Journal article that I linked above shows that several groups of people will actually not be saving money.

[The Fetus]

Or, I'll say this and be less radical: Since when does paying one amount of taxes justify paying more?
When you buy things do you always buy the top of the line? If you're going to spend money anyway, why not spend that money buying something nicer?

Are you fucking stupid? Seriously? "Buy something nicer"? Do you realize how uneducated of an example that is? This is about a human life when it comes to healthcare. People go to the hospital to not die. You are so fucking stupid. How the fuck are you going to cite buying something at a store compared to giving someone treatment from cancer? I am baffled at that--really I am. Jesus H. Christ. This is why we debate, for human rights. That's why we want universal healthcare and that's why we want our taxes to help people from dying or going bankrupt. You are so misinformed and uneducated, and apparently, human lives equal to you what you buy at a store.

If an insurance company cheats you out of benefits they promised to you, they run the risk of losing business. If the government cheats you out benefits promised to you in a plan you were forced to buy into, what risk do they have? You certainly don't have the choice to walk away.

Companies cheat people off their insurance all the time! Are you kidding me?!

[timbot]

I'm not actually trying to compare human life to "nice things." I'm just pointing out that you can't argue "well, we're already paying taxes, so we might as well pay some more."
Also, a lot of people go to the hospital for much less serious things than actual life or death situations. I don't have stats, but I'd say routine stuff is far more common than real life threatening situations.

Did I say companies don't cheat people? Chill out with incredulity. I'm not kidding you.

[Plut]

See, if you did the math, you'd realize that you'd save more money than paying for your health insurance.

It's a lot less expensive to pay for it through taxes than all that money you pay a month for health insurance.

Listen I don't know what taxes will be for this health care bill all I know is its going to be a substantial increase to pay for the 1.6trillion dollar price tag and the government has tried things like this before like Medicare Medicaid and Social Security which are all bankrupt so why would I pay any amount of money to a Government that cant run shit? I would rather pay more to an insurance company who understands health care than to a government who doesn't. My doctors and insurance company have never failed me before and I would rather stick with them.

If this president really cared about you he would be focused on the economy and national defenses than trying to push his own agenda into your face.

[The Fetus]

I'm not actually trying to compare human life to "nice things." I'm just pointing out that you can't argue "well, we're already paying taxes, so we might as well pay some more."
Also, a lot of people go to the hospital for much less serious things than actual life or death situations. I don't have stats, but I'd say routine stuff is far more common than real life threatening situations.

Did I say companies don't cheat people? Chill out with incredulity. I'm not kidding you.
Dude, no. You seriously tried to say that buying something nice is as comparable to someone going to the hospital. I don't even know what to say to that. In fact, after that, I don't even think I have anything more to say to you.

[The Fetus]

If this president really cared about you he would be focused on the economy and national defenses than trying to push his own agenda into your face.

National defense? As in put more money into the military? Now I know you're an idiot. Our country is (supposed to be) a democracy. Democracy means what the majority of the people want. And what the people want is some God damn healthcare. We know it works in other countries and we're very aware how low our quality is here. I'm not arguing with you because you have conservative views, I'm arguing that you seem to care a lot less about a human being trying to go to a doctor who's totally broke.

[Revenance]

People who don't have jobs fully understand that they won't have insurance, thus putting themselves at risk. It's a price to pay for being a lazy bum. I bassiacly go to computer tranfser stations and pull CPU's out of old computers and sell them to scrappers. ( Some have up to 50$ worth of gold in them). I work my ass of, and I don't see why why people that don't should have the same stuff as me.

[The Fetus]

Again, what is it with this popular idea that if someone doesn't have a job, it makes them lazy?

[Revenance]

Also, money in the military is money better spent than money on healthcare for deadbeats. Money spent on the military helps keep our most vualble and couragous citzens, soldiers, safe instead of keeping deadbeats in good health.

[The Fetus]

Well I don't think they deserve a nice house, a nice car, a plasma television, any video games, high-quality wine, or some new Nikes, but I certainly think they should get help if they break an arm or get AIDs.

[Revenance]

People without disablties that don't have a job are lazy. Case closed.

[Revenance]

Well I don't think they deserve a nice house, a nice car, a plasma television, any video games, high-quality wine, or some new Nikes, but I certainly think they should get help if they break an arm or get AIDs.

AIDS from the heroin needles that they inject into themselves and share with thier buddys. You're proving my point.

[The Fetus]

People without disablties that don't have a job are lazy. Case closed.

Explain that to me please.

AIDS from the heroin needles that they inject into themselves and share with thier buddys. You're proving my point.

Yeah, but they're still human beings. What the fuck is wrong with you? If that happened, they obviously do need help so they won't fuck someone else over. And maybe a homeless person was raped and got HIV. Ever think of that?

[Quadros]

The Police and Sanitation is State Run, not Federal.
Still run by the government, or a government. If health care was state run, would your 'concerns' suddenly disappear?

That is incorrect. The 1trillion dollars is Barack Obamas Bailouts and Stimulus bill. He is the first president in history to have a 1trillion dollar deficit in 6 months of office.
Which he had to do because of the economic crisis, caused by the years and years of zero regulation and zero accountability for the economic powerhouses who trashed your economy. That's the years and years BEFORE Obama came to office and had to clean up all of Bush's economic shit. Sure, he's technically the guy who signed the act which bailed out those businesses, but if he hadn't have done, the businesses would have collapsed, followed by the rest of the economy.


No it does not make them do a better job it makes them have a longer more expensive process to the final solution. Its one of Obamas talking points about too many tests. Well if he feels that way for real then he should do the punitive cap.

You're talking to a person who's actually studied medical malpractice law as part of his degree. Sure you can cap the doctor's punitive damages (something I don't have a problem with, I think doctors get a hard time doing a ridiculously difficult job) but it wouldn't solve the problems of the 'most developed' country in the world having less comprehensive health care than Cuba.
Well I don't know about you but I dont make a whole lot of money, I have a mortgage a wife and a baby on the way and I dont want to pay more in taxes so some person who didnt work so hard can get a free lunch.

You're absolutely right. It will only be lazy bums (probably immigrants) who use the medical care, costing you thousands of dollars while enjoying medical care free of charge! I bet they'll even get themselves sick just to fuck you over, right?

Here's a fun fact; 17% of all Americans live below the poverty line. That's when they can't afford the basics needed to survive, like food, shelter and oh yeah, HEALTH CARE. 58% will fall below that threshold for at least one year at some point in their lives.

Here's another; PEOPLE DON'T GET SICK ON PURPOSE YOU JACKASS. If someone needs life saving medical treatment they should receive it. That is a fundamental human right (The UN has my back on this, and they're the people who actually decide these things). Maybe they've never worked a day in their life. Maybe they simply can't afford it because they grew up in a shitty neighbourhood where prospects were low and education standards were lower. Maybe, contrary to a popular belief of what America 'is', it's actual a big economy designed to keep the rich rich and if you're born in poverty you have a very high chance of remaining in poverty for the remainder of your life. 1 in 4 black people live in poverty in the US and 21% of hispanics share that struggle. Only 1 in 10 white people suffer from poverty in the US. Are black people and hispanics less hard working than white people? or are they just fucked over by the system? Do you not think these people need help? Free health care, maybe? Maybe they should help themselves! Maybe 48% of them are children. Maybe 18% of all children in the US live below the poverty line. Are they too lazy to deserve health care?


Fine then if you want equality then lets make the taxes be the same across the board. 50% tax for all. And as stated they are still billionaires well sir if i made $1,000,000 and I got a $500,000 check. I would move somewhere where I get more of what I earned. And if that were to happen, the richer 1% move away from this country, where does that tax burden lie at that point?

Think about these before you speak!

Maybe you can think for a second. a 50% tax on a guy who makes 2 billion dollars a year leaves him with 1 billion dollars. A 50% tax on a guy who makes $50,000 leaves him with $25,000 a year.

'But Quadros, you sexy fiend, isn't that below the poverty line?'

Why, yes it is! Congratulations dumbass, your retarded idea about what equality means has moved another bunch of hard working people under the poverty line! How about instead of equality being about what percentage of tax you pay, it becomes about what standard of living you have? That's how staggered tax brackets work; The richer pay more, because they can afford to pay more. Very easily. Maybe the rich assholes will move away. Maybe that's less voices against a system which would provide an American standard of living to all Americans?

[Revenance]

Quadros, people that don't work as hard as others don't deserve the same things .

[Quadros]

This is a capitalist nation its a free market system.

Do you know what that means? It means that if you want to be something you can do it and be successful with hard work and dedication. Thats why we have people flocking in from Europe Canada Cuba and Mexico. How often do you hear of an American being and illegal alien in some other country? We are the best we do not need Socialized medicine we have the best healthcare in the world and the statistics prove it.

This is not about you or the poor its about control. He has the banks the car companies and now he wants your health care, and if you watched him in his ABC broadcast some bureaucrat somewhere will be making the end of life decisions for your parents your grandparents you and your kids. They will decide if your life is worth saving. Is this what you want?
The banks and automotive industries are government run because they failed to run themselves. Or did you miss that bit? Fun fact; state run healthcare does not rob Doctors of their ethical considerations or their humanity. Doctors and medical proxies would make the decisions, just like they already do. You're spreading a lie because you know it's more terrifying that the truth; these systems work. Man up.

As for your 'illegal immigrant' nonsense, you're aware that those people run to the first world nations because the first world nations are striving to keep the third world destitute, because their economies are basically built on the legalised rape and slavery of those nations, right?

[Antisaint]

Also, money in the military is money better spent than money on healthcare for deadbeats. Money spent on the military helps keep our most vualble and couragous citzens, soldiers, safe instead of keeping deadbeats in good health.

Get off of Glen Beck's dick, please.

[Quadros]

Quadros, people that don't work as hard as others don't deserve the same things .

I agree, which is why the assholes who play golf and sit in big offices making millions off the hard work of their employees, celebrities who get pad for 'being famous' and baseball players get to pay a higher percentage of taxes! Mean while those who 'don't work as hard' still aren't driving porches, but are receiving the basic health care they need to survive and the US is providing all it's citizens with basic human rights.

It's called a 'win-win'.

[Heksen]

people that don't work as hard as others don't deserve the same things .

That's true, but what about people who can't get a job? Some time ago there was an article in Humo, a Flemish magazine, about persons that worked their ass off to finish university. They finished, but now are unable to find a job. Are you saying they are lazy? A person that gets an academic degree in archaeology sure isn't lazy in my eyes.

[Plut]

OK now you all think this is about the poor still. And that the Government had to take over GM and AIG to help. Well I believe that they should've filed for Chapter 11 and let them take care of themselves without our tax dollars being used to fund this. This is all being done for the reason of Mr Obama being able to force his agenda on us. And as all you ignorant poeple call the rich "Assholes" or "dickheads" they are the ones who make sure you have a paycheck. And if you guys had your way they wouldnt be so rich. So now lets think here you tax a rich businessman do you honestly believe that the money for the tax is going to come out of his pocket? If you owned a business and you sold games for instance and the Govt raised your taxes up 50% would the prices of your games stay the same? of course not there would be a mark up for the the difference. You can tax them to death and the only thing it does is it makes the economy worse. These are facts.

The way to improve the economy is tax cuts. You cannot spend your way out of a recession with Cap and Trade and Health Care reform. these are not feesible ideas for the time we are in at the moment.(Not that they are at any time)

"I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle"

[Allen]

Go ask your doctor about this subject and see what he says. I have seen the polls and have been watching this bill since it first came up and I am happy to see that Barack Obama doesnt even have the full support of the Democratic party let alone the American people.

Those members of the Democratic party oppose it because they accept a shitload of money from the health insurance companies.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/03/olbermann-slams-members-o_n_250580.html

Don't just take his word for it. Check his numbers here:

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/index.php#sen

Listen I don't know what taxes will be for this health care bill all I know is its going to be a substantial increase to pay for the 1.6trillion dollar price tag and the government has tried things like this before like Medicare Medicaid and Social Security which are all bankrupt so why would I pay any amount of money to a Government that cant run shit? I would rather pay more to an insurance company who understands health care than to a government who doesn't. My doctors and insurance company have never failed me before and I would rather stick with them.

Well, you have that choice, fuckface.

If this president really cared about you he would be focused on the economy and national defenses than trying to push his own agenda into your face.

Well, you've already criticized him to no end about his focus on the economy. Bitching at him about the bail-out (a Bush proposed bill, by the way, you dumb fuck).

And national defense? We've already got the strongest national defense of any country on the planet. Shut the fuck up!

Quadros, people that don't work as hard as others don't deserve the same things .

Nobody is saying they deserve the same things. They won't have the same things. They'll still be poor and won't have a very great life, and would still want to get out of poverty. We're not giving them the same things. We're giving them a means to access their right to health care. We're giving children born into poverty a way to live and possibly better themselves.

If you can think about all of the innocent children that die everyday because their parents don't have health insurance and you can still oppose a public option for health care, you truly are a piece of shit, and you should seriously consider killing yourself.

[Plut]

The only thing that you are proving to me is that you are truly an idiot.

If you have read any part of this bill which I doubt you have you would know that this "Public Option" is a Oxymoron.

It states in the bill that any change to your current insurance will automatically enroll you in the public option.

Meaning if you get married your insurance automatically changes.

Barack Obama has said that he expects a full rollover in about 10-15years that all people be enrolled.

So he has contradicted himself.

National Defense might be the strongest in the world, but if you were the fastest runner would you stop practicing?

We have North Korea launching missiles could hit Hawaii and yet we do nothing but write letters saying stop. I think the fundamental problem with this country is everyone has there hand out and are not willing to sacrifice for anything.

This idiot that the people voted in has mis-represented himself. You idiots who keep saying its Bush's fault are annoying. He is out of office get over it you have a President who is a complete failure he is not helping the economy he is hindering it and I wonder about his motives.

There is a reason why the country is upset about him and his policies and his cronies that he has in the House and the Senate. And one day these things will come to light. But I honestly believe that he will be a one term president and I hope he doesnt do too much damage during his 4 years in office.

And FYI and this is a true story. A young marine was called into Duty in Afghanistan he refused to go on account of a commander and chief who hasnt even shown his Birth Certificate yet the Military cancelled his orders in a week.

Days later the company he works for (Which has a contract for the Defense Department) Fired him because of pressure they were getting from the Defense Department.

This is the style of politics you are getting. This man is a fraud. Just your typical Chicago style mob polictics.

[Quadros]

OK now you all think this is about the poor still. And that the Government had to take over GM and AIG to help. Well I believe that they should've filed for Chapter 11 and let them take care of themselves without our tax dollars being used to fund this. This is all being done for the reason of Mr Obama being able to force his agenda on us. And as all you ignorant poeple call the rich "Assholes" or "dickheads" they are the ones who make sure you have a paycheck. And if you guys had your way they wouldnt be so rich. So now lets think here you tax a rich businessman do you honestly believe that the money for the tax is going to come out of his pocket? If you owned a business and you sold games for instance and the Govt raised your taxes up 50% would the prices of your games stay the same? of course not there would be a mark up for the the difference. You can tax them to death and the only thing it does is it makes the economy worse. These are facts.

Actually the government signs my cheques. If the automotive industry had filed chapter 11, MILLIONS of Americans would have lost their livelihoods, and would be armed only with skills for an industry that would no longer exist in America. It wasn't about 'controlling' those industries, t was about maintaining the industry and thus the economy. Here's how it works; industry builds items and employs people so that the employed people will buy their products. If they fail to employ people then no-one will buy products and then other industries will not be able to maintain employments levels and will have to let more people go, leading to even less consumer demand which leads to, well, you get my point. It's a downward spiral, it happened in the 1920s and funnily enough no-one's mad keen on it ever happening again.

Also, many industries voluntarily upped their profits in the boom years by downsizing and out sourcing, that is making workers in their target market unemployed and thus reducing demand for their own products, so that they could make loads of money before the bubble burst. I call people who fuck over other people in this manner 'assholes' and 'dickheads', because they shit all over people and think with their egos.

And the thing about INCOME TAX is it's a tax on a persons INCOME. So they can't just dump the tax on the consumers.


The way to improve the economy is tax cuts. You cannot spend your way out of a recession with Cap and Trade and Health Care reform. these are not feesible ideas for the time we are in at the moment.(Not that they are at any time)
Didn't they work in the 20s and 30s? Like, really well? I don't know if you noticed, but it was tax cuts to big business that got the world INTO this mess.

"I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle"
"Cutting employment in your target market pool in a time of prosperity is a dumbass thing to do and trying to shift the blame for the inevitable consequences will only work on the very blindest and dumbest of people."

I said that. Quadros McFuckingawesome, MD (Sexamacology), 2009.

[Revenance]

The taxes generated by the bill will push Middle class people into the lower class, making sure more people need free healthcare, and the people that were paying for the heatlhcare themsleves through taxes won't be able to and the goverment won't be able to tax enough to pay for healthcare. So they will tax rich people, and rich people that own companies will fire middle class people that work for them.

[Allen]

The only thing that you are proving to me is that you are truly an idiot.

If you have read any part of this bill which I doubt you have you would know that this "Public Option" is a Oxymoron.

It states in the bill that any change to your current insurance will automatically enroll you in the public option.

Meaning if you get married your insurance automatically changes.

Barack Obama has said that he expects a full rollover in about 10-15years that all people be enrolled.

So he has contradicted himself.

GOOD! The entire system NEEDS to change. It's been fucked up for a long fucking time, and socialized health care has been working well for Canada and England for quite some time now. So shut the fuck up, you piece of shit.

You've still ignored the fact that you're completely okay with children dying because they have no options for health care.

National Defense might be the strongest in the world, but if you were the fastest runner would you stop practicing?

We have North Korea launching missiles could hit Hawaii and yet we do nothing but write letters saying stop. I think the fundamental problem with this country is everyone has there hand out and are not willing to sacrifice for anything.

That has nothing to do with anything. And I'm a pretty conservative person. I oppose indefinite welfare and a lot of other liberal policies. However, I don't see socialized health care as a handout. It's a way of keeping people alive. No one deserves to die just because they can't afford to play the bullshit insurance game.

This idiot that the people voted in has mis-represented himself. You idiots who keep saying its Bush's fault are annoying. He is out of office get over it you have a President who is a complete failure he is not helping the economy he is hindering it and I wonder about his motives.

There is a reason why the country is upset about him and his policies and his cronies that he has in the House and the Senate. And one day these things will come to light. But I honestly believe that he will be a one term president and I hope he doesnt do too much damage during his 4 years in office.

Yes, Bush is gone now, but his policies of deregulation are the main reason that the economy fucking crashed, and he handed Obama an unprecedented economic crisis that there weren't a lot of options on. I don't entirely agree with the bail-out either, but the options were fucking slim, you dumb fuck. In the beginning, when the bail-out was a Bush proposed policy, most people backed it, including many Republican senators. As soon as Obama got in on it, it suddenly became something the Republicans could use to further divide the parties.

And FYI and this is a true story. A young marine was called into Duty in Afghanistan he refused to go on account of a commander and chief who hasnt even shown his Birth Certificate yet the Military cancelled his orders in a week.

Days later the company he works for (Which has a contract for the Defense Department) Fired him because of pressure they were getting from the Defense Department.

This is the style of politics you are getting. This man is a fraud. Just your typical Chicago style mob polictics.

Fuck that guy! He signed up for the Marines! It doesn't fucking matter what his personal politics are. And yeah, going AWOL is frowned on by almost all employers. No one is going to give a job to someone who bailed on their military service.

What's with this idea that all soldiers are great, brave guys? That dude was just a piece of shit. He bailed on his commitment to his country. His contract didn't have a clause that allowed him to bail if he didn't like the newly elected President.

Shut the fuck up. You keep proving how much of an idiot you are.

[Quadros]

The only thing that you are proving to me is that you are truly an idiot.

If you have read any part of this bill which I doubt you have you would know that this "Public Option" is a Oxymoron.

It states in the bill that any change to your current insurance will automatically enroll you in the public option.

Meaning if you get married your insurance automatically changes.

Barack Obama has said that he expects a full rollover in about 10-15years that all people be enrolled.

So he has contradicted himself.
No, it means that you'll be enrolled in the public option AND still have private insurance if you want it. WHAT AN ASSHOLE.

National Defense might be the strongest in the world, but if you were the fastest runner would you stop practicing?

We have North Korea launching missiles could hit Hawaii and yet we do nothing but write letters saying stop. I think the fundamental problem with this country is everyone has there hand out and are not willing to sacrifice for anything.
Yeah, heads up- North Korea is never going to do anything to you. Get out of the bunker, take off the helmet. They may be crazy, but they're not 'let's blow up a tourist resort belonging to the most warmongering, powerful, bullying nation on the planet and guarantee our total annihilation' crazy.

This idiot that the people voted in has mis-represented himself. You idiots who keep saying its Bush's fault are annoying. He is out of office get over it you have a President who is a complete failure he is not helping the economy he is hindering it and I wonder about his motives.
Yeah when you leave office your war crimes and fuck ups don't leave with you. Neither does your responsibility. It's all Bush's fault, and it's beyond insane that you could allow that idiot to buttfuck your entire country for eight years and then wait until 'they' take over to complain. It may be Obama cleaning up, but it's still Bush's mess. You know that voting republican doesn't bind you to supporting everything they do, right?

There is a reason why the country is upset about him and his policies and his cronies that he has in the House and the Senate. And one day these things will come to light. But I honestly believe that he will be a one term president and I hope he doesnt do too much damage during his 4 years in office.
Everyone loves him, from what I can tell. Excep you and your hunting buddies, I imagine.

And FYI and this is a true story. A young marine was called into Duty in Afghanistan he refused to go on account of a commander and chief who hasnt even shown his Birth Certificate yet the Military cancelled his orders in a week.
I don't know what you're talking about, since that sentence makes no sense, but it sounds like the fact that a soldier WASN'T sent to war by your new Liberal president is a victory for... the Conservatives? Wait, what?

Days later the company he works for (Which has a contract for the Defense Department) Fired him because of pressure they were getting from the Defense Department.
So the army and big business are the bad guys? WHO KNEW???

This is the style of politics you are getting. This man is a fraud. Just your typical Chicago style mob polictics.

Pretty sure this is better than invading 2 UN recognised nations with zero provocation.

We get it, you hate Obama. You want an asshole who doesn't give a shit back in power. This has nothing to do with health care, stop waving your flag, get back on your elephant, and fuck off.

[Plut]

GOOD! The entire system NEEDS to change. It's been fucked up for a long fucking time, and socialized health care has been working well for Canada and England for quite some time now. So shut the fuck up, you piece of shit.

You've still ignored the fact that you're completely okay with children dying because they have no options for health care.



That has nothing to do with anything. And I'm a pretty conservative person. I oppose indefinite welfare and a lot of other liberal policies. However, I don't see socialized health care as a handout. It's a way of keeping people alive. No one deserves to die just because they can't afford to play the bullshit insurance game.



Yes, Bush is gone now, but his policies of deregulation are the main reason that the economy fucking crashed, and he handed Obama an unprecedented economic crisis that there weren't a lot of options on. I don't entirely agree with the bail-out either, but the options were fucking slim, you dumb fuck. In the beginning, when the bail-out was a Bush proposed policy, most people backed it, including many Republican senators. As soon as Obama got in on it, it suddenly became something the Republicans could use to further divide the parties.



Fuck that guy! He signed up for the Marines! It doesn't fucking matter what his personal politics are. And yeah, going AWOL is frowned on by almost all employers. No one is going to give a job to someone who bailed on their military service.

What's with this idea that all soldiers are great, brave guys? That dude was just a piece of shit. He bailed on his commitment to his country. His contract didn't have a clause that allowed him to bail if he didn't like the newly elected President.

Shut the fuck up. You keep proving how much of an idiot you are.

Allen the shame of all this is you are an idiot. If you are an American then you would think you would want freedom and liberty not government handouts. Government is not supposed to run your life. You are in a country where anything is possible yet people do not want to go out and achieve anything they would rather sit at home play with themselves and have the Government take care of everything well I say fuck em. If they want something bad enough there is no one stopping them.

All this stuff does is make the people need the government more and more to the point where government will have too much power. They work for us, we shouldn't work for them I go to work everyday and work 60-80hours a week I got my pay my 401k my HSA and my Insurance. And I will be damned if some president is going to take anything from me to help someone who hasn't earned anything on there own. And since this bill helps illegal immigrants I have a big problem there too. They do not pay anything yet they get to have all the rewards that this system would have.

You tell me I am an idiot and yet you would want this system for your country, there have been tons of stories about how the health care system is failing in the UK and Canada so this type system isnt perfect either. If you want change thats fine but we dont need a single payer health care system this is a slippery slope to losing a lot of freedoms.

Fuck this!

[Slutty McBangerton]

You tell me I am an idiot and yet you would want this system for your country, there have been tons of stories about how the health care system is failing in the UK and Canada so this type system isnt perfect either. If you want change thats fine but we dont need a single payer health care system this is a slippery slope to losing a lot of freedoms.

Fuck this!

As a Canadian, I would like to point out that you know nothing of my country.
Our healthcare system, though far from perfect, is in no way failing.

[Plut]

As a Canadian, I would like to point out that you know nothing of my country.
Our healthcare system, though far from perfect, is in no way failing.


First off how the fuck do you know where I am from or what I know? You are an idiot who is jumping to an incorrect conclusion I know plenty about the Canadian and UK system as well as my own country's system. And the United States system is the best system. The Canadian System does Queue patients and it does ration that's a fact. I don't give a fuck what you say. Thousands of Canadians come across the border to see American Doctors cause they cant get appointments in there own country.

[Slutty McBangerton]

First off how the fuck do you know where I am from or what I know? You are an idiot who is jumping to an incorrect conclusion I know plenty about the Canadian and UK system as well as my own country's system. And the United States system is the best system. The Canadian System does Queue patients and it does ration that's a fact. I don't give a fuck what you say. Thousands of Canadians come across the border to see American Doctors cause they cant get appointments in there own country.

But not the ones who can't afford to do that, yet they still get taken care of here. I am neither an idiot, nor jumping to incorrect conclusions. Your statement (having not been backed by statistics or personal experience) has made it clear that you know nothing about my country or its healthcare system.
So you sir are the idiot.

[Plut]

But not the ones who can't afford to do that, yet they still get taken care of here. I am neither an idiot, nor jumping to incorrect conclusions. Your statement (having not been backed by statistics or personal experience) has made it clear that you know nothing about my country or its healthcare system.
So you sir are the idiot.


I work for a large construction company that does a lot of work in upstate NY near the Canadian Border I have met several canadians who think that the US are stupid for going to a public option and they told me plenty of storys of wating for months to see a doctor. I have never lived in Canada but I know plenty of them I have been around enough to know what I am talking about.

[The Fetus]

FINALLY I get to say this to a right-wing asshole after they've all been saying it to me for years...

LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT PLUT!

It's not free yet, but I'm glad it's getting there.

[Plut]

Well it isn't passed yet.. We will see what happens. And it isn't looking good.

[The Fetus]

Well America is the Land of the Free. You know what that means. Free means you don't pay, right?

[Slutty McBangerton]

I work for a large construction company that does a lot of work in upstate NY near the Canadian Border I have met several canadians who think that the US are stupid for going to a public option and they told me plenty of storys of wating for months to see a doctor. I have never lived in Canada but I know plenty of them I have been around enough to know what I am talking about.

You may have to wait months to get an appointment to see your doctor for a check up (I've never had that happen to me, possibly because I've been with a family doctor my whole life), but there are still many free clinics as well as hospitals if you need to be seen immediately. Ultimately, I'd rather wait months to see a doctor than not be able to afford to see one ever.

[Plut]

You may have to wait months to get an appointment to see your doctor for a check up (I've never had that happen to me, possibly because I've been with a family doctor my whole life), but there are still many free clinics as well as hospitals if you need to be seen immediately. Ultimately, I'd rather wait months to see a doctor than not be able to afford to see one ever.

Yeah that makes sense, by the time you finally see a doctor you will either be fine or dead or worse.. yeah worth the money

[Slutty McBangerton]

Yeah that makes sense, by the time you finally see a doctor you will either be fine or dead or worse.. yeah worth the money

If its an emergency, there are free clinics, which can see you faster, or there is even the emergency room.

You'd be just as dead (according to your logic) if you never went to a doctor because you can't afford it.

[The Fetus]

What about all those potentially dead without health insurance? That's 50 million people.

[Allen]

Allen the shame of all this is you are an idiot. If you are an American then you would think you would want freedom and liberty not government handouts. Government is not supposed to run your life. You are in a country where anything is possible yet people do not want to go out and achieve anything they would rather sit at home play with themselves and have the Government take care of everything well I say fuck em. If they want something bad enough there is no one stopping them.

All this stuff does is make the people need the government more and more to the point where government will have too much power. They work for us, we shouldn't work for them I go to work everyday and work 60-80hours a week I got my pay my 401k my HSA and my Insurance. And I will be damned if some president is going to take anything from me to help someone who hasn't earned anything on there own. And since this bill helps illegal immigrants I have a big problem there too. They do not pay anything yet they get to have all the rewards that this system would have.

You tell me I am an idiot and yet you would want this system for your country, there have been tons of stories about how the health care system is failing in the UK and Canada so this type system isnt perfect either. If you want change thats fine but we dont need a single payer health care system this is a slippery slope to losing a lot of freedoms.

Fuck this!

No, you stupid fuck. I will argue for days and days and days about how people need to get off their asses, how indefinite welfare is a load of bullshit, and how people deserve to get nothing if they do not work.

However, health care isn't the same. You have once again ignored the issue of children who die every fucking week because they have no health care options. Or the people that are generally down on their luck because they got laid off in a bad economy. Have you even thought about those people? The American working corps that just got laid off through absolutely no fault of their own who now are having difficulty finding a job because all companies that would fit into their skill set are downsizing. They can't afford insurance right now either.

Not having a job, especially in this economy, does not equal lazy. And there are tons of people who just can't afford health insurance right now. If something goes horribly wrong with them, they cannot pay to go to the hospital. And if something goes wrong in the interim between their jobs when they briefly lost health insurance, they can't have that covered either, because insurance companies won't cover pre-existing conditions.

Personally, I'd prefer a more moderate system that worked on a case-by-case basis. However, the government has proven time and time again that it can't operate that kind of system, and people who really need help would still be getting fucked over.

You're living on an ideal. You're wishing for an end to unemployment, and you think we are in a victimless world. Whether someone is a lazy piece of shit or not, their children shouldn't have to suffer because of it, and that's exactly what you are rallying for.

You're saying that if a father was too lazy to work and get health insurance, then his kid that needs an operation really just deserves to die. This is what you are implying. You can't argue your overall viewpoint and divorce yourself from this one, because they are one in the same.

[The Fetus]

Why does everyone think if someone doesn't have a job it makes them lazy? I don't get it. Just because someone doesn't have a job doesn't mean they sit at home and masturbate all day.

[Plut]

I am not talking emergency care I am talking terminal diseases like cancer. If our healthcare is so bad how come Canadas survival rate for diseases is much lower than the US's?

[The Fetus]

That's not true you fucking moron. Their life span, along with Europe's, is longer than America's.

[Slutty McBangerton]

I am not talking emergency care I am talking terminal diseases like cancer. If our healthcare is so bad how come Canadas survival rate for diseases is much lower than the US's?

I'd like to see your stats for this.

[The Fetus]

National Defense might be the strongest in the world, but if you were the fastest runner would you stop practicing?

We have North Korea launching missiles could hit Hawaii and yet we do nothing but write letters saying stop. I think the fundamental problem with this country is everyone has there hand out and are not willing to sacrifice for anything.

This idiot that the people voted in has mis-represented himself. You idiots who keep saying its Bush's fault are annoying. He is out of office get over it you have a President who is a complete failure he is not helping the economy he is hindering it and I wonder about his motives.

Jesus man, you'd just believe anything they tell you. As if any of Bush's ideas could've done the slightest bit of progress for the American people.

[Plut]

That's not true you fucking moron. Their life span, along with Europe's, is longer than America's.

Not life span you ignorant moron, survival rate. United States has the highest survival rate for people with terminal diseases.

[Slutty McBangerton]

Not life span you ignorant moron, survival rate. United States has the highest survival rate for people with terminal diseases.

Again, back this up with statistics please.

[The Fetus]

NO MAN! I WANNA PAY AT THE HOSPITAL!
America is sick of people like you and your ideas of government and management that don't work and we are very glad to be pushing forward from bullshit policies.

Oh, and I'm not an Obama supporter by any means, just in case you're like every other conservative that thinks just because I hate Bush automatically makes me a die-hard fanatical Obama supporter.

[HappyPalooza]

Oh, and I'm not an Obama supporter by any means, just in case you're like every other conservative that thinks just because I hate Bush automatically makes me a die-hard fanatical Obama supporter.

Are you seriously stereotyping people for stereotyping people?

[The Fetus]

That's why I said "just in case". :smug::thup:

[Plut]

America is sick of people like you and your ideas of government and management that don't work and we are very glad to be pushing forward from bullshit policies.

Oh, and I'm not an Obama supporter by any means, just in case you're like every other conservative that thinks just because I hate Bush automatically makes me a die-hard fanatical Obama supporter.

http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

read section 102. You will find it most informative. This is the 1018 page Health Bill. It states the protection of choice to keep current insurance.

Read it and tell me Obama tells the truth about being able to keep your coverage.

Read this bill and then tell me you still support it.

You know nothing about this bill or what it means you are fighting me on facts from Huffington Post and MSNBC and CNN, they only tell you the good side of the bill. As I stated before there is no free lunch. Read the Bill for real.

[The Fetus]

I was arguing with you about universal healthcare, not some sugarcoated pay healthcare that Obama suggested.

[HappyPalooza]

Let's be friends.

[Quadros]

My favourite bit is where he's cherry picking things to respond to. Plut, your opinions are full of holes mate.

[Plut]

I was arguing with you about universal healthcare, not some sugarcoated pay healthcare that Obama suggested.


I dont give two shits about Universal Healthcare, I dont care about what other countries have, I care about what my country will become.

I dont want people to die, I dont want kids to die but I want to be able to make my bills and payments. I dont want to raise my taxes I dont need it. Anyone anywhere can walk into any hospital and get care in the US if you dont think this is true try it. It was long ago when I was 18 didnt have insurance and I had a heart problem and had to go to the hospital with no insurance. Sure it wasnt cheap I had to pay for it you can talk to a hospital and put yourself on low monthly payments if you have to to make the bills. I did it so can anyone else.

[Slutty McBangerton]

I dont give two shits about Universal Healthcare, I dont care about what other countries have, I care about what my country will become.

I dont want people to die, I dont want kids to die but I want to be able to make my bills and payments. I dont want to raise my taxes I dont need it. Anyone anywhere can walk into any hospital and get care in the US if you dont think this is true try it. It was long ago when I was 18 didnt have insurance and I had a heart problem and had to go to the hospital with no insurance. Sure it wasnt cheap I had to pay for it you can talk to a hospital and put yourself on low monthly payments if you have to to make the bills. I did it so can anyone else.


And what happens if at that time, you had no income, through no fault of your own.

Would they still offer you low monthly payments?

[The Fetus]

Those taxes are a lot cheaper than what your hospital bill was.

[Plut]

My favourite bit is where he's cherry picking things to respond to. Plut, your opinions are full of holes mate.

I am not cherry picking I am reading and responding as fast as I can.

They are not full of holes I only speak the truth.

I really do not care what you guys think of it. These are all facts

[The Fetus]

My favourite bit is where he's cherry picking things to respond to. Plut, your opinions are full of holes mate.

I noticed that too. I asked him why people are lazy if they don't have a job and all he said was People without disablties that don't have a job are lazy. Case closed.

And I said explain and he never did. :indiff:

[Plut]

And what happens if at that time, you had no income, through no fault of your own.

Would they still offer you low monthly payments?

I have never had myself in any kind of situation where money was a problem. I have always been resourceful enough to find work or get paid in some respects. But I would never expect someone else to cover me. least of all the government.

[The Fetus]

I have never had myself in any kind of situation where money was a problem. I have always been resourceful enough to find work or get paid in some respects.

Some people don't have that luxury. And countries where no one has that luxury like you, still have universal healthcare.

Do you even think about other people?

[Plut]

I noticed that too. I asked him why people are lazy if they don't have a job and all he said was

I do not think all people without jobs are lazy. There are a lot of freeloaders though and no one can say otherwise. But in this country you don't have to work for someone else be entrepreneurial start something up. I once started a web design company with a cheap copy of dream weaver and did it when I was out of work and made money to pay the bills. You have to want to be something. Offer a service for less than the competition and people will pay.

[The Fetus]

I do not think all people without jobs are lazy.

People without disablties that don't have a job are lazy. Case closed.

I can't really trust anything you say, dude.

[Plut]

Some people don't have that luxury. And countries where no one has that luxury like you, still have universal healthcare.

Do you even think about other people?


As stated I don't care about other countries I care about my own country,and my family. If europe loves that system use it, if Canada loves the system use it. I dont want that for the US we are different. We are a Capitalist nation anyone anywhere can do anything. Take that thought away from someone and they become lazy. This is why socialism and communism doesnt work. If its equal across the board than whats the reward for doing well? Then why try and succeed if there is nothing in it?

Its human nature.

[Plut]

I can't really trust anything you say, dude.

That second quote wasnt me dude.

[HappyPalooza]

Offer a service for less than the competition and people will pay.

It's just that simple!

[The Fetus]

That second quote wasnt me dude.

Oh whoops. Well you and Reverance are the same, pretty much. Either way, both you're statements are illogical.

[Plut]

It's just that simple!


Yeah its just that simple. But I dont go around selling services to a business and expect the neighbors to pay.

[The Fetus]

As stated I don't care about other countries I care about my own country,and my family. If europe loves that system use it, if Canada loves the system use it. I dont want that for the US we are different. We are a Capitalist nation anyone anywhere can do anything. Take that thought away from someone and they become lazy. This is why socialism and communism doesnt work. If its equal across the board than whats the reward for doing well? Then why try and succeed if there is nothing in it?

Its human nature.

That is not human nature. That is human behavior. I don't know how to fire a gun or ride a bike until someone teaches me. It's human behavior. Human nature is to feed, sleep, drink, and keep warm.

The reward for doing well is getting the benefit of free healthcare for all. People don't "live" off of free healthcare, they get other things like a home, food, and material possessions. It works everywhere else, why the fuck would it be so terrible and unworkable if the richest country in the world did it?

By the way, take the Netherlands, one of the most free market capitalist countries in the world (yeah, more than us). Guess how much a hospital visit is?

FYI, Europe has a lot more freedom than we do.

[Plut]

That is not human nature. That is human behavior. I don't know how to fire a gun or ride a bike until someone teaches me. It's human behavior. Human nature is to feed, sleep, drink, and keep warm.

The reward for doing well is getting the benefit of free healthcare for all. People don't "live" off of free healthcare, they get other things like a home, food, and material possessions. It works everywhere else, why the fuck would it be so terrible and unworkable if the richest country in the world did it?

By the way, take the Netherlands, one of the most free market capitalist countries in the world. Guess how much a hospital visit is?

I dont care about Netherlands, we are the United States we have worked well for Hundreds of years. I dont feel a need to emulate other countries. We are a leader not a follower.

[Slutty McBangerton]

Having your taxes help pay to make healthcare available for the public isn't going to all of a sudden cause everyone everywhere to stop working hard.

[The Fetus]

Exactly! It's not like housing and food are free.